Too presumptuous

London, Unsplash

MPhil 2003

2003 The Problem of Evil: Anglican and Baptist Perspectives: MPhil thesis, Bangor University 

Statement thirty-five: Statement thirty-five stated: Ultimately evil will be confined to an everlasting hell. I think this is the best position to take from a Biblical perspective, as it appears in Revelation 20:14, that death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire. Some argue that this is describing annihilationism, however, verse 10 describes this as a place of everlasting torment for the devil, beast, and false prophet.

It would be too presumptuous, in my view, to assume that human beings thrown into this lake would simply be annihilated. With this statement there is a substantial difference in opinion between the two groups. With Anglicans, 54% agreed, 24% were not certain, and 22% disagreed. With Baptists, 86% agreed, 6% were not certain, and 8% disagreed.

Related

I see that there is some significant debate in the comments from a related article of mine from over ten years ago. I still stand by my comments against annihilation with the use of Erickson.

July 1 2009

Friendly guest comments from 2009

I don’t think this necessarily follows from Erickson’s argument even if his statements are true (and I tend to agree with him). Christ’s atonement is effectual only for those who are called, for those who’ve been regenerated to life by the Spirit. To say that Christ has atoned for the sin of all humanity is simply to say that His atoning work is sufficient for every human being, not that it is effectual for every human being. Therefore, just because some human beings’ sins are never atoned for does not argue against annihilationism. 

My reply from 2009

Quote

Therefore, just because some human beings’ sins are never atoned for does not argue against annihilationism. 

I do not think this proves your point. If atonement is not applied to a person and is not effectual this means a person is still guilty of sin. How is this paid for and covered without atonement? It is not. Remember, Erickson pointed out that Christ as infinite God outlasted finite sin in the atonement.

December 21 2019

Speculation comes to mind that I have made online and offline, over the years.

Annihilation might be theologically just, if the atonement of Jesus Christ, as infinite God and perfect human being, universally covered all human sin. But, if the bible taught universal atonement of all human sin and post-mortem annihilation; hades (post-mortem as spirit) and the lake of fire (post-mortem as resurrected) would seem unneeded.

But what about eventual annihilation?

A finite amount of time (existence if one prefers) in either reality, with literal flames, or more likely actual realities presented with metaphor, would not cover finite and continued, post-mortem, human sin against an infinite God.

The one that offered accepted atonement was the infinite God himself, as incarnate, perfect man (Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Hebrews as examples).

Luke 16 from New American Standard Bible (NASB)

19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Revelation 20 from the New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

(The second resurrection which is for unbelievers)

and

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

But, to be very clear, my noted theology of universal atonement/limited election is NOT in my mind, biblical and biblical theology. It is not my position and has never been my position. It is simply theological speculation, that I have considered as an academic. How annihilation might biblically work in light of the atoning and resurrection work of Jesus Christ as some in scholarship hold to it as a position. I hold to a Reformed, biblical position.

Related 

February 26 2019

ELWELL, WALTER AND YARBROUGH, ROBERT W., Third Edition (2013) Encountering The New Testament, Grand Rapids, Baker Academic.

MOUNCE, ROBERT H. (1990) The Book of Revelation, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

Bogus Dilemma

Lake Como, Italy: Villadestedotcom

Bogus Dilemma

Preface

Edited and revised July 30, 2023

Pirie: Bogus Dilemma

PIRIE, MADSEN (2006)(2015) How To Win Every Argument, Bloomsbury, London.

'The bogus dilemma is the fallacy of falsely or mistakenly presenting a dilemma where none exists.' (53). 'The fallacy in the false dilemma consists of presenting false consequences or a false choice, and it will be of most use to you in situations where decisions which you oppose are being contemplated. Quickly you step in, pointing out that one of two things will happen, and that bad results will follow either way'. (54). The author lists the fallacious example of allowing a hostel for problem teenagers in the area as in 'either it will be empty or it will be full'. (54). If empty the hostel would be a waste of money, if the hostel is full there will be too much trouble for the area to handle. (54). This is fallacious because it is very possible the hostel for teenagers may be neither too empty, nor too full and both perceived problems could be negated.

I reason that there is black and white within philosophy and theology and that it is not fallacious to hold to for example, in the Gospel context, that either one is in Christ or outside of Christ (John 14: 6). Whomever is not written in the Lamb's Book Of Life is outside of the everlasting Kingdom of God (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 20, 21: 27).

Bifurcation is a fallacy when there is a denial of extra choices. (48). By the exclusion of relevant items (48), relevant options. This does not mean therefore that everything within reality, including all philosophy and theology contains gray/grey options and nothing is ever black and white. Truth can include limited choice. Pirie admits bifurcation often occurs in a dilemma where only two possible choices exist. (49-50). Therefore bifurcation would not always be fallacious. The 'dilemma itself is a sound form of argument'. (49).

It is important to reason out within philosophy, the actual dilemmas, in contrast to false and bogus dilemmas. For example, in the context of my review of this Pirie text, if one accepts naturalism and some forms of empiricism, then post-mortem, non-existence is the most likely occurrence for humanity. In other words, if there are more reasonable possibilities post-mortem than the New Testament model, after the resurrection (Revelation 20, 1 Corinthians 15) than either being within the Kingdom of God, or instead being within the lake of fire, it would then be the case that the Biblical model would present a false and bogus dilemma. Non-exhaustively, other highly unlikely, but theoretical post-mortem possibilities, include, reincarnation, spending everlasting life on other planets with aliens, living everlastingly with Thor and Norse gods.

But the Biblical, New Testament, worldview presents a dilemma of sorts, based on my understanding of the Pirie text. There are two possibilities only. Other such philosophical theories would be non-Biblical. Even if a traditionally, Reformed view of everlasting, conscious punishment is rejected in favour of annihilation, in regards to everlasting punishment, it still takes place within the lake of fire of Revelation 20, with everlasting effect as in Revelation 21-22.

Texas State University

Department of Philosophy: False Dilemma 

Some cited examples of this fallacy from Texas State University

(My reply in brackets)

Are you a Republican or a Democrat? 

(Neither, I am not an American voter)

If you're not going to heaven, you must be going to you-know-where. 

(Admittedly, to credit this cited source, logically, it is possible that there are more than two alternatives, post-mortem, as already noted.) 

BRUCE, F.F. (1986) ‘Revelation’, in F.F. Bruce (gen.ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Marshall Pickering/ Zondervan. 

COURSON, JON (2005) Application Commentary, Thomas Nelson, Nashville. 

DUNNETT, WALTER M. (2001) Exploring The New Testament, Wheaton, Crossway Books.

ELWELL, WALTER AND YARBROUGH, ROBERT W., Third Edition (2013) Encountering The New Testament, Grand Rapids, Baker Academic.

FEE, GORDON D. (1987) The First Epistle To The Corinthians, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

GUNDRY, ROBERT (1981) A Survey of the New Testament, Grand Rapids, Zondervan.

HOCKING, DAVID (2014) The Book of Revelation, Tustin, California, HFT Publications.

JOHNSON A.F. (1996) 'Book of Life’, in Walter A. Elwell (ed.), Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Books. 

KANE, ROBERT HILLARY (1996) ‘Book of Life’, in Robert Audi (ed.), The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy, Cambridge, Cambridge University Press.

MARSH, PAUL, W. (1986) ‘1 Corinthians’, in F.F. Bruce, (ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Marshall Pickering/Zondervan.     

MARSHALL, ALFRED (1975)(1996) The Interlinear KJV-NIV, Grand Rapids, Zondervan. 

MOUNCE, ROBERT H. (1990) The Book of Revelation, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

PIRIE, MADSEN (2006)(2015) How To Win Every Argument, Bloomsbury, London.

TEXAS STATE UNIVERSITY, Department of Philosophy, Texas, USA.

https://www.txst.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/False-Dilemma.html

Bullet Thursday: 33 C/91 F

A previous recent warm day

Bullet Thursday: 33 C/91 F

• Following the medical guidance and advice of the MD from the long term care home, I am expecting my Mom to pass away from dementia within the next few days. As I discussed within the previous entry, sentimental theology or sentimental philosophy does not really solve any problems here.

Tuesday, July 28, 2020 Sentimental theology: Theology matters and so does philosophy

• A theoretical, speculative God that does not clearly reveal plans in regards to post-mortem existence for humanity in spirit and perhaps eventually in resurrection form, is almost in my mind, as useless as the basically no or little hope for post-mortem existence within atheism or agnosticism.

• Almost, I state, that in perhaps God could/might grant post-mortem existence for certain people, but that would be hopeful speculation.

• To be blunt, in general, sentimental theology and sentimental philosophy in regards to death has the same end, that is the same theological and philosophical result, as atheism and agnosticism; which is no significant hope of everlasting, post-mortem existence.

• A Christian theist such as myself can reason that the person that has died was morally imperfect as we all are, was part of, and affected by, the problem of evil, did not receive direct communication from God normally, and likely not at any point, prior to death. From this there is not an obvious reason to realistically, and reasonably assume that a person that has passed away goes to a better place within a speculative theistic model which lacks historically based religious revelation. 

• In my mind, theology and philosophy, even the very academic and technical types, have practical value in my life.

• The religious history of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament and the consistent theology of the ancient manuscripts even with minor textual variations, has me most confident in a Reformed, Biblical, Christian worldview and the gospel message, in comparison to other worldviews, even as there are truths is many worldviews. 

• Hebrews 9:27-28 New American Standard Bible (NASB) 27 And inasmuch as it is [a]appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Footnotes: Hebrews 9:27 Lit laid up 

• Interesting from Jon Courson and his commentary here in regard to Hebrews 9: 27: Take those who say the Bible doesn't teach against reincarnation to this passage-and wallop 'em. Courson (1488). 

• Boice notes that from Hebrews 9: 27 that Christ put away sin by the sacrifice of himself, after that comes (divine, my add) judgement. Boice (348). 

• Humanity is not immortal states Hughes. (387). Humanity is totally dependent on God for 'the continuance of life'. (387). Any significant everlasting life is dependent on the grace of God. In the Christian worldview, everlasting life depends on divinely applied grace through faith to persons, in the gospel message. (Romans 1-6, Ephesians 1-2, John 1 as examples).

 • My three Vancouver Canucks masks finally arrived from NHL.com today after an approximately two month wait. With the longer straps they are far more comfortable than my other two cloth masks.

BOICE, JAMES, MONTGOMERY (1981) Foundations of the Christian Faith, Downers Grove, IVP Press. 

COURSON, JON (2005) Application Commentary, Thomas Nelson, Nashville.

HUGHES, PHILIP, EDGCUMBE (1990) A Commentary On The Epistle To The Hebrews, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

F. R. Tennant & Theodicy (PhD Edits) and First Use of New Blogger Interface

Sydney (trekearth)

Preface

Greetings.

This will be my first post done mainly with the new Blogger interface. It has been standard for months but because it has been more difficult to use I have been using the old Blogger interface. However, based on Blogger messages at the Dashboard I reason time is short for the old interface and I should become used to the new set-up which is superior overall with more benefits but at this point has too many problems at the word processing level. I began this post with presenting my usual world tourism photos and as I suspected from previous trials the blog look will be slightly different. So far it has been quite problematic with basic spacing issues between images and text and some of the post will have to be done with the old interface this time. I realize Blogger is a free service, but Google is a multi-billion dollar corporation at the head of Blogger and this should have been corrected months ago.

Tennant and Original Sin

F.R. Tennant (1906) rejects a traditional doctrine of original sin[1] as he writes that the doctrine is self-condemned as the idea involves original guilt.[2] He reasons that guilt is only applicable to someone who has willingly committed an act,[3]and I would agree. I do not think that all human beings are guilty of the sin of Adam and Eve, or if one prefers with some progressive positions which I do not hold to, the first persons that disobeyed God.[4] I accept the doctrine of original sin in that the corrupted nature of humanity will inevitably lead to the human choice to commit wrong actions.[5] Tennant’s concept is to reject hypothetical prior causes of ‘sin’[6] and instead views human evil as the normal process of development that takes place in the human race.[7] Moral law would need to be established ashumanity gradually develops over centuries.[8]

Tennant and Evolutionary Type Theodicy

F.R. Tennant (1930)(1956) writes an evolutionary type theodicy[9]and notes that a world characterized by static perfection is incompatible withour known world of evolutionary process.[10] Hick with a Soul-MakingTheodicy writes that some form of a two-stage creation of humanity[11] must be accepted by Christian theodicy in order to provide an effective modern, progressive approach.[12] Human beings must, through uncompelled responses and co-operation with the creator, become children of God.[13] Hick notes importantly that the soul-making evolutionary process would not be caused by natural andinevitable human progress.[14] Although there has been some ethical progress throughout history,[15]the morality of humanity remains much the same as it has always been.[16] To Hick, humanity is not being developed by a preset divine evolutionary condition towards godliness,[17]but rather God will evolve individuals through a personal spiritual experience within each person.[18] Tennant believes that infuture ages good may begin to gain over evil in accelerated speed,[19]but he acknowledges that evil may continue everlastingly, while never being able to overcome good.[20] Hick, in reviewing Tennant’s work on theodicy, views the possibility of everlasting evil as gravely weakening Tennant’s evolutionary approach.[21] It would not guarantee acompletely successful teleological[22] theodicy in which all human beings are eventually redeemed by God.[23] Hick states that there is a universal human process which will continue in most post-mortem souls, as only a few have a proper understanding of God while on earth.[24]

Tennant and Post-Mortem Existence

Tennant (1930) writes that Supreme Being is a God of the living and not of the dead,[25]and that this God would respect persons and not cut them off with everlasting death, but provide them with everlasting life.[26] An evolutionary theodicy that believes in soul-making provides all of humanity with the hope that post-mortem existence[27]will be good and an improvement from earthly life.

AUGUSTINE (398-399)(1992) Confessions,Translated by Henry Chadwick, Oxford, Oxford University Press.

BLOESCH, DONALDG. (1987) Freedom for Obedience, SanFrancisco, Harper and Rowe Publishers.

ERICKSON,MILLARD (1994) Christian Theology,Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.

ERICKSON,MILLARD (2003) What Does God Know andWhen Does He Know It?, Grand Rapids,Zondervan.

GEBARA, IVONE(2002) Out of the Depths, Translatedby Ann Patrick Ware, Minneapolis, Fortress Press.

HICK, JOHN(1970) Evil and The God of Love,London, The Fontana Library.

HICK, JOHN(1978) ‘Present and Future Life’, HarvardTheological Review, Volume 71, Number 1-2, January-April, HarvardUniversity.

HICK, JOHN(1981) Encountering Evil, Stephen T.Davis (ed.), Atlanta, John Knox Press.

HICK, JOHN(1993) ‘Afterword’ in GEIVETT, R.DOUGLAS (1993) Evil and the Evidence forGod, Philadelphia, Temple University Press.

HICK, JOHN(1993) The Metaphor of God Incarnate,Louisville, Kentucky, John Know Press.

HICK, JOHN(1994) Death and Eternal Life,Louisville, Kentucky, John Knox Press.

HICK, JOHN(1999) ‘Life after Death’, in Alan Richardson and John Bowden (eds.), A New Dictionary of Christian Theology,Kent, SCM Press.

PHILLIPS, D.Z.(1981) Encountering Evil, Stephen T.Davis (ed.), Atlanta, John Knox Press.

PHILLIPS, D.Z.(2005) The Problem of Evil and the Problem of God, Fortress Press, Minneapolis.

SCUDDER, DELTON,LEWIS (1940) Tennant’s PhilosophicalTheology, London, Oxford University Press.

TENNANT, F.R.(1906) The Origin and Propagation of Sin,Cambridge, Cambridge University Press.

TENNANT, F.R.(1930)(1956) Philosophical Theology,Cambridge, Cambridge University Press.

---

[1] Tennant (1906:20).

[2] Tennant (1906: 20).

[3] Tennant (1906: 20).

[4] Tennant (1906:20).

[5] Augustine(398-399)(1992: 82). Erickson (1994:638).

[6] Tennant (1906:20).

[7] Tennant (1906: 81).

[8] Tennant (1906: 81).

[9] Tennant (1930)(1956:184).

[10] Tennant (1930)(1956: 184).

[11] Hick (1970: 291).

[12] Hick (1970: 291).

[13] Hick (1970: 291).

[14] Hick (1970: 292).

[15] Western secularismhas placed an importance on human rights in regard to women’s rights and therights of ethnic minorities. However,Gebara would state that women’s suffering worldwide need to be better understood through a feminist construct. There is a male view of evil that has been predominant throughout Christian history. Gebara (2002: 4-6).

[16] Hick (1970: 292).

[17] Hick (1970: 292).

[18] Hick (1970: 292).

[19] Tennant(1930)(1956: 195).

[20] Tennant (1930)(1956: 195).

[21] Hick (1970: 252-253).

[22] Bloesch (1987: 19).

[23] Hick (1970: 252-253).

[24] Hick in Davis (2001: 51). Phillips (2005: 87).

[25] Tennant (1930:205).

[26] Tennant (1930: 205).

[27] Hick (1978:13).

John Hick on Hell (PhD Edit)

Vienna via email

December 24, 2011

Hell

John Hick strongly disagrees with the Augustinian tradition of an everlasting hell.[1] Within this approach, the idea that significantly free persons reject God and do not repent and follow the creator,[2] leads to a conclusion that God will issue post-mortem punishment of these people.[3] Hick reasons such a view is a product of religious imagination.[4] He writes that the everlasting hell idea has served the Christian Church well throughout history because it demonstrated the cosmic drama that separates humankind from God and Christ.[5] Hick, however, sees the fatal flaws within the view of everlasting hell as necessarily leading those who study theodicy in the modern era to reject such a doctrine.[6] He notes since everlasting punishment would not assist in soul-making that it would be unconstructive, constituting the largest part of the problem of evil.[7] Since the universe would forever contain the evil of rebellious persons, God’s creation would permanently be spoiled and ultimately a failure.[8] Clark Pinnock (1992) describes a conditional immortality view within the Four Views on Hell text by William V. Crockett.[9] Pinnock explains that reconciliation and redemption would be questionable within heaven if evil existed in hell forever.[10] Surely God would have to abolish all evil in his new creation postulates Pinnock.[11] The subject of everlasting punishment is not central,[12] and therefore as seen within this thesis is not reviewed within the theodicy work of Augustine, Plantinga, or Feinberg. Everlasting hell was connected by Hick to Augustinian and Reformed thought,[13] but arguments for or against everlasting hell are not directly related to free will or sovereignty theodicy.[14]


December 24, 2011

In contrast

I was wisely advised by my adviser not to go deeply into the subject in my PhD thesis as it would be too controversial and dangerous in the secular setting of UK/European academia. I have however discussed this subject in other posts on both blogs.

In the annihilation article on satire and theology I presented an argument against the annihilation of unregenerate post-mortem persons. This is not exhaustive and is an argument, not the argument. I have used Erickson as a source to support my premises and conclusion.

God is perfectly holy.

Erickson writes that God is totally separate from his creation. Erickson (1994: 284).

Erickson lists Exodus 15: 11, 1 Samuel 2: 2 and Isaiah 57: 15.

God is absolutely pure and good; God is not evil. Erickson (1994: 285).

Erickson lists Job 34: 12, Habakkuk 1: 13 and James 1: 13

Human beings are sinful. Due to the fall.

Jeremiah 17: 9, Romans Chapter 1-3, Romans 3: 23, Romans 6: 23.

Sin must be atoned.

God is the administrator of justice and cannot justly simply forgive sins. Erickson (1994: 816). God is equally the God of love and justice. Justice is therefore not ignored for the sake of love, as a holy God must be just.

Christ as infinite God outlasted finite sin in the atonement.

As God, Christ’s death has infinite worth. Erickson (1994: 804). As God he can atone for all finite human sin.

Christ as a perfect man was sacrificed for imperfect persons in the atonement.

As a human, Christ could redeem other humans. Erickson (1994: 804). Christ redeemed all of human nature through the atonement. Erickson (1994: 804).

Therefore:

Those outside of Christ cannot justly be annihilated as their sins are never atoned.

Further, Biblically, all persons exist port-mortem (Revelation, Chapter 20). Unfortunately, it could be reasoned that everlasting punishment exists as finite unregenerate persons continue to attempt to, in a sense, atone for their sins in hell, but can never fully cover their sins without Christ. Therefore they cannot justly be annihilated. Earthly sins are not covered, and post-mortem sins (rejecting God and related) in disembodied and resurrection states also remain uncovered.

BROWNING, W.R.F. (1997) Oxford Dictionary of the Bible, Oxford, Oxford University Press.

CROCKET, WILLIAM (1992) Four Views On Hell, William Crocket (ed.),Grand Rapids, Zondervan Publishing House.

ERICKSON, MILLARD (1994) Christian Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.

HICK, JOHN (1970) Evil and The God of Love, London, The Fontana Library.

---

[1] Hick (1970: 284).

[2] Hick (1970: 284).

[3] Hick (1970: 284).

[4] Hick (1970: 284).

[5] Hick (1970: 284).

[6] Hick (1970: 284-285).

[7] Hick (1970: 377). It can be deduced that everlasting hell is a realm that is not an aspect of God’s creation intended for human development. It would not have to be free from the problem of evil. Our present universe would be restored through Christ and the problem of evil ended. Any everlasting hell would not constitute, in our context, the largest aspect of the problem of evil.

[8] Hick (1970: 378).

[9] Pinnock in Crockett (1992: 154).

[10] Pinnock in Crockett (1992: 154).

[11] Pinnock in Crockett (1992: 154). Browning suggests everlasting hell concepts such as Hades may relate to the Christian, New Testament use of ancient myths that consisted of the ‘decent of deities to the underworld,’ such as Orpheus, Eurydice and Persephone. Christ may be understood to have descended here after his death (First Peter 3: 19). Browning (1997: 168).

[12] It is a related issue to the study of theodicy.

[13] Hick (1970: 284).

[14] Hick (1970: 284).

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