 |
| Wicklow, Ireland |
Luke 13:1-5 Brief
Edited June 22-23, 2022 for an academia.edu entry
Photo: Wicklow, Ireland (trekearth.com)
My friend and website link, Timothy, from West Virginia, posted an interesting article late 2012, which I commented on in 2013. His website link is now dead in 2022.
Evil and Suffering
Evil and Suffering
My website comment, in-part, was on the audio message by Dr. James White, 'Responding to Evil and Suffering' . I stated: 'I think James White is one of the more enlightened theologians today.'
I reason that this was the video that we discussed in 2013. Included.
In reviewing the White video, in regard to the problem of evil and problems of evil and suffering, I would agree that a major difficulty with the public is a lack of related education. I would also add to what was stated in that the lack of knowledge in Theology, Philosophy and Philosophy of Religion, is what leads to in-part the emotional reactions to evil that he mentioned. This is ignorance, as well as, universal sinful nature.
Looking at my MPhil and PhD survey results and how important Reformed doctrines were rejected by those within the cultural Christian Church. How much more they would be rejected by the general public. Yes, God wills, directly or indirectly (allows) what occurs, or from the more traditional Reformed theology, this is described in the language of decrees.
Saturday, September 19, 2020 PhD Full Version PDF: Theodicy and Practical Theology 2010, Wales TSD
Looking at my MPhil and PhD survey results and how important Reformed doctrines were rejected by those within the cultural Christian Church. How much more they would be rejected by the general public. Yes, God wills, directly or indirectly (allows) what occurs, or from the more traditional Reformed theology, this is described in the language of decrees.
Saturday, September 19, 2020 PhD Full Version PDF: Theodicy and Practical Theology 2010, Wales TSD
Worldview education is absolutely needed at this point. I have pointed out many times on my website work that in regard to the problem of evil and theodicy, persons are finite (and sinful) and as within the Hebrew Bible, Job text, this makes judging God impossible to do accurately.
In the audio presentation by James White, Luke 13 is cited as an example of Jesus Christ discussing the universal sinfulness of human kind:
Luke 13: 1-5 New American Standard Bible
In the audio presentation by James White, Luke 13 is cited as an example of Jesus Christ discussing the universal sinfulness of human kind:
Luke 13: 1-5 New American Standard Bible
13
Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had [a]mixed with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? 3 I tell you, no, but unless you [b]repent, you will all likewise perish. 4 Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse [c]culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”
Luke 13: 1-5 English Standard Version Bible
Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had [a]mixed with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? 3 I tell you, no, but unless you [b]repent, you will all likewise perish. 4 Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse [c]culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”
Luke 13: 1-5 English Standard Version Bible
13
There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? 3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? 5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”
Porter in his Luke commentary, explains the hearers of these events seemed to view the sufferers of these events as persons of exceptional wickedness and evil and this why God allowed this evil and suffering to occur to them. A view similar to that of Job's friends in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament. And a view sometimes taken by the disciples. Porter (1986: 1210).
Jesus Christ rejects this understanding and instead states that the hearers need to repent or they too will perish. Porter (1986: 1210).
Matthew Henry-Luke 13
From Matthew Henry's Luke commentary:
'3. On these stories he founded a call to repentance, adding to each of them this awakening word, Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish, Luke 13:3-5.
(1.) This intimates that we all deserve to perish as much as they did, and had we been dealt with according to our sins, according to the iniquity of our holy things, our blood had been long ere this mingled with our sacrifices by the justice of God. It must moderate our censure, not only that we are sinners, but that we are as great sinners as they, have as much sin to repent of as they had to suffer for.
(2.) That therefore we are all concerned to repent, to be sorry for what we have done amiss, and to do so no more. The judgments of God upon others are loud calls to us to repent. See how Christ improved every thing for the pressing of that great duty which he came not only to gain room for, and give hopes to, but to enjoin upon us--and that is, to repent.
(3.) That repentance is the way to escape perishing, and it is a sure way: so iniquity shall not be your ruin, but upon no other terms.
(4.) That, if we repent not, we shall certainly perish, as others have done before us. Some lay an emphasis upon the word likewise, and apply it to the destruction that was coming upon the people of the Jews, and particularly upon Jerusalem, who were destroyed by the Romans at the time of their passover, and so, like the Galileans, they had their blood mingled with their sacrifices and many of them, both in Jerusalem and in other places, were destroyed by the fall of walls and buildings which were battered down about their ears, as those that died by the fall of the tower of Siloam. But certainly it looks further except we repent, we shall perish eternally, as they perished out of this world. The same Jesus that calls us to repent because the kingdom of heaven is at hand, bids us repent because otherwise we shall perish so that he has set before us life and death, good and evil, and put us to our choice.
(5.) The perishing of those in their impenitency who have been most harsh and severe in judging others will be in a particular manner aggravated.'
Porter makes reasonable points. Christ was definitely and definitively in disagreement with the hearers and was pointing out the universal sinfulness of humanity and the need for repentance.
With Henry (1) does not demonstrate that a greater suffering in death demonstrates greater sinfulness by the persons involved.
In regard to (2) because all persons are sinful universally (Genesis, Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Hebrews as examples) there would be a need for universal repentance by persons involved. At the time Christ spoke this those in the Hebrew faith were awaiting the Messiah and therefore this was stated prior to the atoning work and resurrection of Christ, but it would still be a religion of faith through the grace of God, and not by works (Ephesians 2). I mention universal repentance, but do not hold to universal salvation as only the elect, those chosen in Christ (Ephesians 1, Romans 8) shall be regenerated.
There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? 3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? 5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”
Porter in his Luke commentary, explains the hearers of these events seemed to view the sufferers of these events as persons of exceptional wickedness and evil and this why God allowed this evil and suffering to occur to them. A view similar to that of Job's friends in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament. And a view sometimes taken by the disciples. Porter (1986: 1210).
Jesus Christ rejects this understanding and instead states that the hearers need to repent or they too will perish. Porter (1986: 1210).
Matthew Henry-Luke 13
From Matthew Henry's Luke commentary:
'3. On these stories he founded a call to repentance, adding to each of them this awakening word, Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish, Luke 13:3-5.
(1.) This intimates that we all deserve to perish as much as they did, and had we been dealt with according to our sins, according to the iniquity of our holy things, our blood had been long ere this mingled with our sacrifices by the justice of God. It must moderate our censure, not only that we are sinners, but that we are as great sinners as they, have as much sin to repent of as they had to suffer for.
(2.) That therefore we are all concerned to repent, to be sorry for what we have done amiss, and to do so no more. The judgments of God upon others are loud calls to us to repent. See how Christ improved every thing for the pressing of that great duty which he came not only to gain room for, and give hopes to, but to enjoin upon us--and that is, to repent.
(3.) That repentance is the way to escape perishing, and it is a sure way: so iniquity shall not be your ruin, but upon no other terms.
(4.) That, if we repent not, we shall certainly perish, as others have done before us. Some lay an emphasis upon the word likewise, and apply it to the destruction that was coming upon the people of the Jews, and particularly upon Jerusalem, who were destroyed by the Romans at the time of their passover, and so, like the Galileans, they had their blood mingled with their sacrifices and many of them, both in Jerusalem and in other places, were destroyed by the fall of walls and buildings which were battered down about their ears, as those that died by the fall of the tower of Siloam. But certainly it looks further except we repent, we shall perish eternally, as they perished out of this world. The same Jesus that calls us to repent because the kingdom of heaven is at hand, bids us repent because otherwise we shall perish so that he has set before us life and death, good and evil, and put us to our choice.
(5.) The perishing of those in their impenitency who have been most harsh and severe in judging others will be in a particular manner aggravated.'
Porter makes reasonable points. Christ was definitely and definitively in disagreement with the hearers and was pointing out the universal sinfulness of humanity and the need for repentance.
With Henry (1) does not demonstrate that a greater suffering in death demonstrates greater sinfulness by the persons involved.
In regard to (2) because all persons are sinful universally (Genesis, Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Hebrews as examples) there would be a need for universal repentance by persons involved. At the time Christ spoke this those in the Hebrew faith were awaiting the Messiah and therefore this was stated prior to the atoning work and resurrection of Christ, but it would still be a religion of faith through the grace of God, and not by works (Ephesians 2). I mention universal repentance, but do not hold to universal salvation as only the elect, those chosen in Christ (Ephesians 1, Romans 8) shall be regenerated.
Divine regeneration (John 3, Titus 3, 1 Peter 1) in the gospel work of Jesus Christ, through his applied atoning and resurrection work being required in order for biblical, human repentance to take place.
Certain types of perishing can be avoided (3), through repentance and the Lord meant what was stated.
But on the other hand because the resurrection work is not completed in this life (1 Corinthians 15) all persons do physically perish because of death. In his audio presentation, James White, in my view correctly states that God can therefore justly because of the fall of Genesis 3 take a person. God's commandment to not kill is a reflection of his character and morality, however, God being perfectly holy has the right to kill a sinful human being because of sin.
There is also a philosophical/theological issue to ponder on whether or not the infinite God that exists by necessity would also have the moral right to destroy his finite creatures that do not exist by necessity, if he so wished. Human beings and finite creatures instead being contingent. I reason that God would have that right, as alone being necessary/of necessity. But in love he chooses not to, having an eternal plan for them.
As I stated in person many times God can justly take the life of a human being from embryo to elderly, in light of Genesis 3 and the fall/sinful nature.
I reason (4) is probably a strong reasonable candidate as an accurate understanding, in that the Temple did fall in Jerusalem in AD 70, and the same fate could befall many of the listeners too if they did not repent. This point (4) seems to make very good sense if tied to (3) as in something that can be avoided, as in to not perish with the Temple within that type of Hebrew belief system but to have repented in Christ.
Point (5) is speculative in nature, and I will leave that sort of judgment up to God.
Certain types of perishing can be avoided (3), through repentance and the Lord meant what was stated.
But on the other hand because the resurrection work is not completed in this life (1 Corinthians 15) all persons do physically perish because of death. In his audio presentation, James White, in my view correctly states that God can therefore justly because of the fall of Genesis 3 take a person. God's commandment to not kill is a reflection of his character and morality, however, God being perfectly holy has the right to kill a sinful human being because of sin.
There is also a philosophical/theological issue to ponder on whether or not the infinite God that exists by necessity would also have the moral right to destroy his finite creatures that do not exist by necessity, if he so wished. Human beings and finite creatures instead being contingent. I reason that God would have that right, as alone being necessary/of necessity. But in love he chooses not to, having an eternal plan for them.
As I stated in person many times God can justly take the life of a human being from embryo to elderly, in light of Genesis 3 and the fall/sinful nature.
I reason (4) is probably a strong reasonable candidate as an accurate understanding, in that the Temple did fall in Jerusalem in AD 70, and the same fate could befall many of the listeners too if they did not repent. This point (4) seems to make very good sense if tied to (3) as in something that can be avoided, as in to not perish with the Temple within that type of Hebrew belief system but to have repented in Christ.
Point (5) is speculative in nature, and I will leave that sort of judgment up to God.
---
ALLEN, C. LESLIE (1986) 'Romans' in F.F. Bruce (ed.), <i>The International Bible Commentary</i>, Grand Rapids, Zondervan.
BAUER, WALTER. (1979) A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Translated by Eric H. Wahlstrom, Chicago, The University of Chicago Press.
BLACKBURN, SIMON (1996) Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy, Oxford, Oxford University Press.
BROWNING, W.R.F. (1997) Dictionary of the Bible, Oxford, Oxford University Press.
BRUCE, F.F. (1987) Romans, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
CALVIN, JOHN (1539)(1998) The Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book IV, Translated by Henry Beveridge, Grand Rapids, The Christian Classic Ethereal Library, Wheaton College. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.html
CALVIN, JOHN (1540)(1973) Romans and Thessalonians, Translated by Ross Mackenzie, Grand Rapids, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
CALVIN, JOHN (1543)(1996) The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, Translated by G.I. Davies, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.
CALVIN, JOHN (1550)(1978) Concerning Scandals, Translated by John W. Fraser, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
CALVIN, JOHN (1552)(1995) Acts, Translated by Watermark, Nottingham, Crossway Books.
CALVIN, JOHN (1553)(1952) Job, Translated by Leroy Nixon, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.
CALVIN, JOHN (1554)(1965) Genesis, Translated by John King, Edinburgh, The Banner of Truth Trust.
CLINES, DAVID J. A. (1986) Job, The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Zondervan.
CLINES, DAVID J. A. (1986) Proverbs, The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Zondervan.
COAD, F. ROY (1986) 'Galatians' in F.F. Bruce (ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Zondervan.
COURSON, JON (2005) Application Commentary, Thomas Nelson, Nashville.
CRANFIELD, C.E.B. (1992) Romans: A Shorter Commentary, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
DUNN, JAMES D.G. (1988) Romans, Dallas, Word Books ELLISON, H.L. (1986) ‘Matthew’, in F.F. Bruce (ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Zondervan.
ELLISON, H.L. (1986) ‘Genesis’, in F.F. Bruce (ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Zondervan.
FEINBERG, JOHN.S. (1986) Predestination and Free Will, in David Basinger and Randall Basinger (eds.), Downers Grove, Illinois, InterVarsity Press.
FEINBERG, JOHN.S. (1994) The Many Faces of Evil, Grand Rapids, Zondervan Publishing House.
FEINBERG, JOHN.S. (2001) No One Like Him, John S. Feinberg (gen.ed.), Wheaton, Illinois, Crossway Books.
FOULKES, FRANCIS (1989) Ephesians, Grand Rapids, Inter-Varsity Press.
GUNDRY, ROBERT (1981) A Survey of the New Testament, Grand Rapids, Zondervan.
HENRY, MATTHEW (1721), Complete Commentary on Luke.
http://www.studylight.org/com/mhm/view.cgi?bk=41&ch=13&vs=1-5
HENRY, MATTHEW (1721), Complete Commentary on Luke.
http://www.studylight.org/com/mhm/view.cgi?bk=41&ch=13&vs=1-5
HUGHES, PHILIP. (1990) A Commentary On The Epistle To The Hebrews, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
PORTER, LAURENCE. E. (1986) ‘Luke’, in F.F. Bruce (gen.ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Marshall Pickering/ Zondervan.
PORTER, LAURENCE. E. (1986) ‘Luke’, in F.F. Bruce (gen.ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Marshall Pickering/ Zondervan.
LA SOR, WILLIAM SANFORD, DAVID ALLAN HUBBARD, AND FREDERIC WILLIAM BUSH. (1987) Old Testament Survey, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
MOUNCE, ROBERT H. (1995) The New American Commentary: Romans, Nashville, Broadman & Holman Publishers.
STRONG, J. (1890)(1986) Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Burlington, Welch Publishing Company.
The Orthodox Study Bible, New Testament and Psalms, (1993) Saint Athanasius Orthodox Academy,Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville, Tennessee.
WHITE, JAMES DR. (2012) Responding to Evil and Suffering, You Tube.
