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Brief On Nephilim/Origins Debate
Edited: February 16, 2021, July 7, 2022
So as I am back from work I would like to finish this brief post: I started it earlier today and then was asked to come to work as a favour...
Brief On Nephilim
From Northview Community Church, theology class Wednesday night: Angels and Demons
Genesis 6: 1-6 English Standard Version
When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, z“My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, afor he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. 5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
Jude 1: 5-6 English Standard Version
5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved[c] a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire,[b] serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
The speculation by the pastor, citing some theologians in general, was that Jude 1 is describing the angels, the sons of God and the Nephilim from Genesis 6. The theory being these angels could no longer procreate being in prison. Likely the Abyss/Hades. Which 'likewise' indulged in sexual immorality.
Marshall translates it 'in the like manner'. Marshall (1984: 721).
ton omoion tropon
in the like manner
For balance the pastor mentioned...
Matthew 22:30-31 English Standard Version
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching.
It could be deduced here that it is indicated that angels do not procreate and resurrected human beings shall not procreate. However, he noted the possibility that angels and demons taking human form could possibly procreate. Angels appearing as men in Genesis 19, for example--Sodom.
If some demonic beings could take the form of persons and have sexual relations, it is possible that some that are not in prison, the abyss, Hades, and are still capable of such acts. I am not dogmatic on this issue either way, but it is interesting.
Driving back from work at night just now, in the oncoming lane separated by a concrete barrier, I heard and did not see, it was that fast and did not even see the lights if there were any on, a motorbike fly by at what I estimated was probably 100-130 mph... Crazy.
So as I am back from work I would like to finish this brief post: I started it earlier today and then was asked to come to work as a favour...
Brief On Nephilim
From Northview Community Church, theology class Wednesday night: Angels and Demons
Genesis 6: 1-6 English Standard Version
When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, z“My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, afor he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. 5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
Jude 1: 5-6 English Standard Version
5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved[c] a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire,[b] serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
The speculation by the pastor, citing some theologians in general, was that Jude 1 is describing the angels, the sons of God and the Nephilim from Genesis 6. The theory being these angels could no longer procreate being in prison. Likely the Abyss/Hades. Which 'likewise' indulged in sexual immorality.
Marshall translates it 'in the like manner'. Marshall (1984: 721).
ton omoion tropon
in the like manner
For balance the pastor mentioned...
Matthew 22:30-31 English Standard Version
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching.
It could be deduced here that it is indicated that angels do not procreate and resurrected human beings shall not procreate. However, he noted the possibility that angels and demons taking human form could possibly procreate. Angels appearing as men in Genesis 19, for example--Sodom.
If some demonic beings could take the form of persons and have sexual relations, it is possible that some that are not in prison, the abyss, Hades, and are still capable of such acts. I am not dogmatic on this issue either way, but it is interesting.
Asexual?
Edits: February 16, 2021
By the way, I do not reason that resurrected human beings being like angels means persons shall be asexual in the culminated Kingdom of God.
I think that is reading too much into what was stated.
See also Erickson and Kreeft with views of hyper-sexuality (my paraphrased term, in general agreement with their views) which I think are reasonable. Sexuality in the sense of spirit-body (1 Corinthians 15). Much more spiritual and pure than anything to be found in a fallen world.
By the way, I do not reason that resurrected human beings being like angels means persons shall be asexual in the culminated Kingdom of God.
I think that is reading too much into what was stated.
See also Erickson and Kreeft with views of hyper-sexuality (my paraphrased term, in general agreement with their views) which I think are reasonable. Sexuality in the sense of spirit-body (1 Corinthians 15). Much more spiritual and pure than anything to be found in a fallen world.
Not mass celestial marriages or like.
In my mind, likely spirit-body essence bonding as opposed to body parts bonding as needed for pro-creation. A spirit-body without sin, allows a much deeper level of fellowship, including with one of the opposite sex.
This still being in line with Genesis 1-2 and God's plans for male and female.
Persons shall not procreate and shall not marry, like angels.
The fact human beings are resurrected as physical men and women still makes a serious and significant ontological distinction from angelic beings.
Note: Christ was resurrected as a man.
In my mind, likely spirit-body essence bonding as opposed to body parts bonding as needed for pro-creation. A spirit-body without sin, allows a much deeper level of fellowship, including with one of the opposite sex.
This still being in line with Genesis 1-2 and God's plans for male and female.
Persons shall not procreate and shall not marry, like angels.
The fact human beings are resurrected as physical men and women still makes a serious and significant ontological distinction from angelic beings.
Note: Christ was resurrected as a man.
Erickson states that experiences in the culminated of God could be 'suprasexual' (1232). Beyond sexual union. (1232). Experiences in heaven will surpass those in this realm. (1232). The opposite sex can be enjoyed beyond sexual union in purity.
hyper and supra both meaning 'beyond' in context.
From
Sex in Heaven? Indeed, and no pale, abstract, merely mental shadow of it either. Earthly sex is the shadow, and our lives are a process of thickening so that we can share in the substance, becoming Heavenly fire so that we can endure and rejoice in the Heavenly fire.
Origins Debate
In regard the Bill Nye versus Ken Ham debate, I was emailed the following...
Cited
'A clash over worldviews by Lita Cosner, Scott Gillis, Keaton Halley
Creation was on the media’s radar again recently, thanks to the announcement that media personality Bill Nye (best-known for his TV show ‘Bill Nye the Science Guy’) would go head-to-head in a debate with Ken Ham at the Creation Museum in Kentucky. Bill Nye was actually criticized for debating a creationist by his fellow atheists.
Dr Jerry Coyne, professor of ecology at the University of Chicago, says that: “… he should just continue to write and talk about the issue on his own, and not debate creationists. By so doing, he gives them credibility simply by appearing beside them on the platform.”
Similarly, the high priest of evolution, Richard Dawkins, said: “I agree that to do this on Ham’s home turf was a mistake, and indeed it is almost always a mistake to give wingnuts the oxygen of publicity, and the respectability of being seen on a platform with a real scientist, anywhere.”
End citation
My edited replies:
Certainly do not agree with Nye and his naive Religious Studies evaluations. He fails to understand likely, philosophical subjects such as first cause and the need for it, instead claiming not to know, when a philosophical first cause although not proving a Biblical God, is in line with that Genesis 1, God concept.
I heard Ham debate Hughes Ross (Old Earth Christian Astronomer) and from what I remember I thought Ross won the debate easily on the scientific front and the Scripture discussion was at least a draw.
The argument for measurable light years was an argument seems to me that Ross won with easily. Using this to measure time and distance 'It is a Universal constant'. Oxford (2010: 773).
Reasons To Believe: Debate
I think Reason to Believe is good for the science, but I do not think Hugh Ross is a Religious scholar from what I have heard.
Cited
‘By contrast, RTB advocates an old-earth creation perspective. We interpret the “days” of Genesis as long ages.’
This from my less than exhaustive understanding would not necessarily be the case as ‘Yom’ can mean 24 hour days and is the interpretation of some for Genesis 1. However, it is quite possible to use a literal term in a poetic figurative literal context. Jesus can state: I am the door in John 10: 9 which according to Strong is a literal door...door, gate, portal, entrance (Strong p. 47) and yet here it is used in a figurative literal context, as Christ is stating that He is the way of salvation.
Additional
Lexicon
#2374. θυ´ρα thura; a prim. word; a door:— NASB - door(28), doors(6), entrance(3), gate(1), gates(1). And then...
Strong allows for plain literal and figurative uses of 'yowm' in 3117 (Strong p. 63).
Hebrew
ם
yôm yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially)
End citations
Origins Debate
In regard the Bill Nye versus Ken Ham debate, I was emailed the following...
Cited
'A clash over worldviews by Lita Cosner, Scott Gillis, Keaton Halley
Creation was on the media’s radar again recently, thanks to the announcement that media personality Bill Nye (best-known for his TV show ‘Bill Nye the Science Guy’) would go head-to-head in a debate with Ken Ham at the Creation Museum in Kentucky. Bill Nye was actually criticized for debating a creationist by his fellow atheists.
Dr Jerry Coyne, professor of ecology at the University of Chicago, says that: “… he should just continue to write and talk about the issue on his own, and not debate creationists. By so doing, he gives them credibility simply by appearing beside them on the platform.”
Similarly, the high priest of evolution, Richard Dawkins, said: “I agree that to do this on Ham’s home turf was a mistake, and indeed it is almost always a mistake to give wingnuts the oxygen of publicity, and the respectability of being seen on a platform with a real scientist, anywhere.”
End citation
My edited replies:
Certainly do not agree with Nye and his naive Religious Studies evaluations. He fails to understand likely, philosophical subjects such as first cause and the need for it, instead claiming not to know, when a philosophical first cause although not proving a Biblical God, is in line with that Genesis 1, God concept.
I heard Ham debate Hughes Ross (Old Earth Christian Astronomer) and from what I remember I thought Ross won the debate easily on the scientific front and the Scripture discussion was at least a draw.
The argument for measurable light years was an argument seems to me that Ross won with easily. Using this to measure time and distance 'It is a Universal constant'. Oxford (2010: 773).
Reasons To Believe: Debate
I think Reason to Believe is good for the science, but I do not think Hugh Ross is a Religious scholar from what I have heard.
Cited
‘By contrast, RTB advocates an old-earth creation perspective. We interpret the “days” of Genesis as long ages.’
This from my less than exhaustive understanding would not necessarily be the case as ‘Yom’ can mean 24 hour days and is the interpretation of some for Genesis 1. However, it is quite possible to use a literal term in a poetic figurative literal context. Jesus can state: I am the door in John 10: 9 which according to Strong is a literal door...door, gate, portal, entrance (Strong p. 47) and yet here it is used in a figurative literal context, as Christ is stating that He is the way of salvation.
Additional
Lexicon
#2374. θυ´ρα thura; a prim. word; a door:— NASB - door(28), doors(6), entrance(3), gate(1), gates(1). And then...
Strong allows for plain literal and figurative uses of 'yowm' in 3117 (Strong p. 63).
Hebrew
ם
yôm yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially)
End citations
AUGUSTINE (388-395)(1964) On Free Choice of the Will, Translated by Anna S.Benjamin and L.H. Hackstaff, Upper Saddle River, N.J., Prentice Hall.
AUGUSTINE (398-399)(1992) Confessions, Translated by Henry Chadwick, Oxford, Oxford University Press.
AUGUSTINE (400-416)(1987)(2004) On the Trinity, Translated by Reverend Arthur West Haddan, in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series One, Volume 3, Denver, The Catholic Encyclopedia. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/130104.htm
AUGUSTINE (421)(1998) Enchiridion, Translated by J.F. Shaw, Denver, The Catholic Encyclopedia. http://www.knight.org/advent
AUGUSTINE (426)(1958) The City of God, Translated by Gerald G. Walsh, Garden City, New York, Image Books. AUGUSTINE (427)(1997) On Christian Doctrine, Translated by D.W. Robertson Jr., Upper Saddle River, N.J., Prentice Hall.
AUGUSTINE (427b)(1997) On Christian Teaching, Translated by R.P.H. Green, Oxford, Oxford University Press.
BAUER, WALTER. (1979) A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Translated by Eric H. Wahlstrom, Chicago, The University of Chicago Press.
BLACKBURN, SIMON (1996) Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy, Oxford, Oxford University Press.
CALVIN, JOHN (1554)(1965) Genesis, Translated by John King, Edinburgh, The Banner of Truth Trust.
ELLISON, H.L. (1986) ‘Genesis’, in F.F. Bruce (ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Zondervan.
ERICKSON, MILLARD (1994) Christian Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.
MARSHALL, ALFRED (1975)(1996) The Interlinear KJV-NIV, Grand Rapids, Zondervan.
Oxford Dictionary of Science, (2010), Sixth Edition, Oxford, Oxford University Press.
ERICKSON, MILLARD (2003) What Does God Know and When Does He Know It?, Grand Rapids, Zondervan.
FRETHEIM, TERENCE E. (1994) ‘Is Genesis 3 a Fall Story?’, in Word and World, Luther Seminary, pp. 144-153, Saint Paul, Luther Seminary.
HAMILTON, VICTOR P. (1988) Handbook on the Pentateuch, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.
KREEFT, PETER (1988) Fundamentals of the Faith, San Francisco, Ignatius Press.
KREEFT, PETER AND RONALD K. TACELLI (1994) Handbook of Christian Apologetics, Downers Grove, Illinois, InterVarsity Press.
LA SOR, WILLIAM SANFORD, DAVID ALLAN HUBBARD, AND FREDERIC WILLIAM BUSH. (1987) Old Testament Survey, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
MARSHALL, ALFRED (1975)(1996) The Interlinear KJV-NIV, Grand Rapids, Zondervan.
Oxford Dictionary of Science, (2010), Sixth Edition, Oxford, Oxford University Press.
PAYNE DAVID F. (1986) 'Jude' in F.F. Bruce (ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Zondervan.
STRONG, J. (1890)(1986) Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Burlington, Welch Publishing Company.
THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT (1993) Stuttgart, United Bible Societies.
Hi Russ: I have read through your explanation "Brief On Nephilim/Origins Debate. I did try to read slowly and understand exact meaning, but I am not a scholar by any means. I find it all very interesting and will look forward to reading more. Thanks for your deep and scholarly interest in this subject.
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A woman was at her hairdresser's getting her hair styled for a trip to Rome with her husband..
She mentioned the trip to the hairdresser, who responded: " Rome? Why would anyone want to go there? It's crowded and dirty. You're crazy to go to Rome. So, how are you getting there?"
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"We're going to go to see the Vatican and maybe get to see the Pope."
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A month later, the woman again came in for a hairdo. The hairdresser asked her about her trip to Rome.
"It was wonderful," explained the woman, "not only were we on time in one of Continental's brand new planes, but it was overbooked, and they bumped us up to first class. The food and wine were wonderful, and I had a handsome 28-year-old steward who waited on me hand and foot.. And the hotel was great! They'd just finished a $5 million remodeling job, and now it's a jewel, the finest hotel in the city. They, too, were overbooked, so they apologized and gave us their owner's suite at no extra charge!"
"Well," muttered the hairdresser, "that's all well and good, but I know you didn't get to see the Pope."
"Actually, we were quite lucky, because as we toured the Vatican, a Swiss Guard tapped me on the shoulder, and explained that the Pope likes to meet some of the visitors, and if I'd be so kind as to step into his private room and wait, the Pope would personally greet me. Sure enough, five minutes later, the Pope walked through the door and shook my hand! I knelt down and he spoke a few words to me.."
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He said: "Who screwed up your hair?"
This is like CHEATING
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Man Responsible For Olympic Ring Mishap Found Dead In Sochi
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Writer (s) having fun with political satire...
Looking through 'The Probability of the Resurrection of Jesus' by Richard Swinburne 'Philosophia Christi', Volume 15, Number 3, 2013
ReplyDeletePage 252
Stated somewhat hypothetically:
There is a God or not, probability 1/2
Probability God would become incarnate 1/2
Probability the historical evidence was only such that it was not very probable you would find if Jesus was God incarnate and rose from the dead at 1/10
Jesus was not God incarnate based on posterior evidence as 1/1000
Still 97/100 probability Jesus was God incarnate and rose from the dead.
I respect Swinburne, that I read/cited for my UK theses work for defending the Christian religion, faith and philosophy. The work has reasonable elements, no doubt.
I do view his numbers as somewhat arbitrary.
On the existence or not of God, I do not see it as 1/2 versus 1/2, rather based on my view of certainty from my PhD I would see Christianity and the Gospel core as internally and externally certain. Not at all claiming infinite 100% certainty that would be of the first cause and God, but I do not see premises and conclusions, therefore arguments, internally within Christianity that cause significant doubt of the Christian Religion, such as internal contradiction, nor do I see external counter arguments against Christianity and the Gospel that are greater such as from the problem of evil, origins or personal Christian behaviour.
He does not provide the mathematics for his 97/100 conclusion with his article, but states it can be found in his related book. I do not have it, nor did I find it online. I would only, in humility, in say a blog post, attempt to work through it with his explanations. This limits a researched response.
Taught from MPhil and PhD work, for such technical work, primary source is essential.
Online he is noted as using 'Bayes's Theorem' 'any of several relationships between prior and posterior possibilities or odds'.
According to Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy page 65, 1996, Richard Jeffrey:
1) Posterior probability is prior probability x the relevance quotient
2) Posterior odds are prior odds x the likelihood ratio
3) Comes from expanding P (probability) data via the law of total probability.
4) Bayes's rule has new unconditional probabilities equal to old ones when 'fresh certainty about the date leaves probabilities conditionally upon the data changed.'
5) One is to do the same for the odds 'Choose so as to maximize expectation of utility'
Basically if available, the data from Swinburne's book would need to be calculated.
But as stated seems rather arbitrary...
Many pro and con could simply deny the numbers. Deny premise (s) to avoid conclusion.
'Five bucks is hardly good pay.
ReplyDeleteMore 'splam'...'
Here is some controversy, philosophical style:
Seeing today on a sports channel how yet another 'model' adult child of ex-sports star in dating, perhaps engaged to a new up and coming sports star.
I can philosophically understand how persons of similar social structures and levels date same. Not stating it is all good as it does seem rather closed-minded, but can understand it. It is reasonable.
On the other hand, it seems very predictable. Done I reason without much spiritual reflection in most cases but mainly a trust in the flesh.
Cookie-cutter.
When this is done in the Church, I seriously wonder if in many cases, placing relationships and therefore in context, God, in a box, God wills and allows many of these relationships within permissible will because his perfect will would not be socially acceptable.
It might even be considered ridiculous.
Ex: Near perfectly healthy person dating someone blind, if there was mutual attraction.
After all (social rules) would not the first person be getting 'ripped off?'
However, what about mutual blessing through ministry?
Is there any way the non-blind person could get an equal deal within true love?
I have a married friend that will minister to partner even though there are mental struggles that were not present prior to wedding.
Parents have suggested my friend leave...
A deeper understanding requires more serious spiritual reflection and perhaps change than the Church culturally would allow.
Via the fall, I seriously reason social rules are as addictive and insidious as sexual sin is to others in the Church. I think too much relying on social rules and sexual sin in most are serious results of Genesis 3.
Not claiming to free from it, but I make reasonable points.
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Any chance for demon possession to be a factor in the Nephilim stuff?
ReplyDeleteI am a young earth creationist, but gave up on the young earth creationist apologists long ago. They don't know anything about the philosophy of science and thus out of ignorance concede the entire argument before the debate even gets started.
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ReplyDelete'Any chance for demon possession to be a factor in the Nephilim stuff?'
ReplyDeletePossible, sir, I would deduce.
To state the Lord made the earth and Universe look old may be reasonable philosophical speculation, and same for theology, but it is not scientific.
Therefore, to conclude otherwise on a science basis is reasonable.
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ReplyDelete-The Jeff
Impressive tall people from the past...
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