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An idea raised to me at church Wednesday night in a discussion in regard to various Reformed and Arminian interpretations.
James 2:14-17
English Standard Version
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[a] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Demons can have dead faith and are not believers in trusting, as in faith in God. In other words they do not simply have no faith, but have dead faith having previously believed was the presumption..
However:
Reasonable and good point.
This makes it possible dead faith is equal to no faith.
But, theologically demons/satanic beings are not salvageable, and will not be saved.
Therefore no faith/dead faith is not something that God will preach on or attempt to change in regard to fallen angels/demons.
However, in a person, or one in Christ, dead faith could be hypothetically at least, revitalized in the Holy Spirit in salvation.
In most of a discussion I reaffirmed my views and was confident in them and was probably influential, but I reason I needed to examine James 2 again.
I affirm often in person and online my work is somewhat in transition and I often revise. Although I hold to the Biblical orthodox essentials.
In regard to James 2
Grace To You and John MacArthur
Sermon
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"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." The theme of this very important passage then is "dead faith."
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And as I suggested to you last time, the distinguishing mark of dead faith is the absence of righteous deeds. It reflects a person who believes in the facts of God's truth but feels no particular compulsion to behave in a righteous manner and produces no works of true goodness. And this is of great concern to James. In fact, it's of great concern to God and therefore a great concern to us.'
Cited
'And so, we see then that James is giving us all through his epistle and there are others, tests of a living faith. And in the midst of it, in chapter 2, he points out the character of a dead faith. That is a faith that says all the right things and affirms to believe all the right things but manifests no transformed life.'
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There is a consequence to true belief. It isn't just only believe.'
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'Let's look, then, at the character of dead faith, and then the comparison, the character of living faith in these verses. Three things mark out non-saving dead faith, three things. Number one, empty confession...empty confession, verse 14; "What does it profit, or what good is it, or of what benefit, what gain, my brethren," speaking of his Jewish brethren and of those who were brethren at least in the visible church on the outside, "What does it profit, my brethren, though a man say he has faith and does not have works? Can that kind of faith--parenthesis-- save him?" Now this person claims to have faith in God, claims to be a believer, claims to be in right relationship to God. Perhaps even affirms believing in Jesus Christ. Back in chapter 2, verse 1, "My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ the Lord of glory with respect of persons?" In other words, don't have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ that manifests itself this way. So we could assume that the faith here in verse 14 is a faith that would embrace Christ. They believed that Jesus was God, the Messiah. Perhaps they believed, of course, that He died and rose again. All of those facts were in the right perspective. But what good is it, what profit is it, of what use is it to make a claim that you believe that, to say you have faith if you have nothing to evidence it?
End citation
Interesting.
'They believed that Jesus was God, the Messiah. Perhaps they believed, of course, that He died and rose again. All of those facts were in the right perspective.'
This is curious, however, it has been stated by some in the Reform camp that human beings do not have the ability to simply intellectually believe in the gospel, as do demonic beings.
Demonic beings and obedient angels having had direct access to the spiritual realm; not the case for humanity.
In other words, persons outside of the Holy Spirit, could not have a 'right perspective'. The idea being non-believers do not believe the gospel on any true significant basis. Someone that truly believed would have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit. What is commonly reasoned to be intellectual belief only, according to this view, is rather intellectual consideration that the gospel sounds like it could be true.
This may be church attenders that are in a sense, trying the gospel.
Those with a right perspective, therefore it could be reasoned would need to be in Christ, although may not be producing good works.
I remember that a Trinity Western University and Reformed Baptist professor of mine was part of a ministry group with like views. Of course, I am providing interpretation of those views.
I am not dogmatic either for or against, on this concept, but have come across it as noted.
Cited
For the sake of argument, James says a man comes along and makes the claim. He confesses to believe the truth of salvation, present tense. He is constantly saying he has faith. He keeps on making that claim and maybe he even identifies outwardly with the visible church. But what good is such a continual habitual claim to faith if he doesn't have works? And here the works referred to are good works, righteous deeds. If these are not the evidence in his life then where is the salvation.
The point being, you cannot have a true salvation without evidence. You cannot have a genuine conversion without a product. I mean, there has to be a transformation. If before my redemption I live for the flesh and against God and if redemption is transformation then at least has to be a reversal of that so that I now long to live for God and to do those things which His power is working in me. So what good is such faith? The answer is no good. It's no good at all. It's nothing but an empty confession. It's nothing but a meaningless profession. It is like Matthew 7, "Lord, Lord, we did this and we did that..." And He says, "Depart from Me, I never knew you, you workers of iniquity." In other words, the point is this, I don't know you. I hear what you're confession but I see when I look at your life that you are workers of what? Of iniquity. Your claim is meaningless. Of what value is a claim to believe when all the evidence is unrighteousness? The point being that where there is the work of God there will be the evidence. And that is why in looking at false teachers in that same seventh chapter, he says "By their fruit you shall...what?...you shall know them."
That's the evidence. It's the product. I mean, it's so simple, people. Listen, it's this simple. You can not know that anyone possesses saving faith any other way than by their works. There's no other way to know it. It's the only way. And a claim with no evidence substantiates nothing.'
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No one is saved by works, but no one is saved without producing works. Ephesians 2 states that persons are being saved by grace through faith, not of your own works, a gift of God...for good works.
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'How well do you do? "The devils also believe and they go one better than you, they shake. You, my friend, are inferior to demons in your understanding." You see the sarcasm of "you do well, oh, you do well?" You're just one notch below demons. At least they shake. They're orthodox. You know that? They're orthodox. All demons are orthodox, there are no neo-orthodox demons. There are no liberal demons. There are no rationalistic demons. There are no heretical demons. They all believe the truth because they know it's true. They are orthodox and they tremble. The word "tremble" literally is the word "to bristle" from hair standing on end. They know what the godless are going to get and when they believe in God, they believe that God is and they know who God is and they shake because they know God is the judge. They go one better than those with dead faith. Dead faith is inferior, may I say it, dead faith is inferior to demon faith because at least the demons shudder. They don't produce good works either, by the way.'
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'You know what I believe James is saying here? There are a lot of people who believe on the surface, but they really err in misunderstanding dead faith to be living faith. And if you convert them to the reality of a living faith, you will save a soul from what? From death.'
MacArthur would see dead faith basically equaling non-salvific faith.
Monergism and J.I. Packer
Cited
'Faith cannot be defined in subjective terms, as a confident and optimistic mind-set, or in passive terms, as acquiescent orthodoxy or confidence in God without commitment to God. Faith is an object-oriented response, shaped by that which is trusted, namely God himself, God’s promises, and Jesus Christ, all as set forth in the Scriptures. And faith is a whole-souled response, involving mind, heart, will, and affections. Older Reformed theology analyzed faith as notita (“knowledge,” i.e., acquaintance with the content of the gospel), plus assensus (“agreement,” i.e., recognition that the gospel is true), plus fiducia (“trust and reliance,” i.e., personal dependence on the grace of Father, Son, and Spirit for salvation, with thankful cessation of all attempts to save oneself by establishing one’s own righteousness: Rom. 4:5; 10:3). Without fiducia there is no faith, but without notita and assensus there can be no fiducia (Rom. 10:14).' 'When James says that faith without works is dead (i.e., a corpse), he is using the word faith in the limited sense of notita plus assensus , which is how those he addresses were using it. When he says that one is justified by what one does, not by faith alone, he means by “justified” “proved genuine; vindicated from the suspicion of being a hypocrite and a fraud.” James is making the point that barren orthodoxy saves no one (James 2:14-26).
Paul would have agreed, and James’s whole letter shows him agreeing with Paul that faith must change one’s life. Paul denounces the idea of salvation by dead works; James rejects salvation by dead faith. Though the believer’s works do not merit salvation and always have something imperfect about them (Rom. 7:13-20; Gal. 5:17), in their character as expressions of the love and fidelity that faith calls forth they are the basis on which God promises rewards in heaven (Phil. 3:12-14; 2 Tim. 4:7-8). For God thus to reward us according to our works is, as Augustine noted, his gracious crowning of his own gracious gifts.'
Packer states: 'Paul denounces the idea of salvation by dead works; James rejects salvation by dead faith.'
Pondering on this I reason that my tentative view with my first James 2 post that James 2 possibly can be tied to 1 Corinthians 3: 10-15 in regard to a believer dying with works burned up is questionable although certainly not dead.
Those in 1 Corinthians 3, like James 2 not producing good works, but Paul W. Marsh describes the works being burned up in 1 Corinthians as a fire of judgement. Judgement in Christ implied. It could be stated that these workers fail to provide good works, but they apparently still have a live, real faith. I can understand how those in 1 Corinthians 3 and 2 Peter 3 have an actual live faith, and where those in James 2 may not. I still take a Reformed view, although still tentatively, on 2 Peter 3 as being directed to Christians in regard to repentance so that they do not perish as in physically dying, in a state of non-repentance. Not being in the context of salvation.
1 Corinthians 3:10-15
English Standard
10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
2 Peter 3: 8-10
8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,[a] not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies[b] will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.[c]
MARSH, PAUL, W. (1986) ‘1 Corinthians’, in F.F. Bruce, (ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Marshall Pickering/Zondervan.
