Wednesday, July 31, 2013

Compatibilism (MPhil)

Banpo Bridge, South Korea-Google Images

Earlier work on compatibilism from D.A. Carson and my MPhil thesis.

The Problem of Evil: Anglican and Baptist Perspectives: MPhil thesis, Bangor University, 2003

More recent work done in the context of the Doctorate and presented in blog format:

Middle Knowledge
PhD Passed
Free will, Sovereignty and Soul-Making (PhD edit)
Reformed Theology and Providence
Calvin On Augustine
Jonathan Edwards (PhD Edit)

Compatibilism (MPhil)

7. Compatibilism Definition Chapter 11, entitled The Mystery of Providence, is the centre piece of Carson’s book and sets out his philosophical outlook concerning the problem of evil in light of God’s sovereignty and human freedom.

Carson stated: The Bible as a whole, and sometimes in specific texts, presupposes or teaches that both of the following propositions are true: God is absolutely sovereign, but his sovereignty never functions in such a way that human responsibility is curtailed, minimized, or mitigated. Human beings are morally responsible creatures–they significantly choose, rebel, obey, believe, defy, make decisions, and so forth, and they are rightly held accountable for such actions; but this characteristic never functions so as to make God absolutely contingent.

In what follows, I shall argue that the Bible upholds the truth of both of these propositions simultaneously. The view that both of these propositions are true I shall call compatibilism. We could call this view anything we like, but for various historical reasons this seems like a good term to use. All I mean by it is that, so far as the Bible is concerned, the two propositions are taught and are mutually compatible. Carson (1990: 201). 

Selected Biblical Overview Carson listed and discussed some Biblical examples of compatibilism and I will review some of these. In Genesis 50:19-20 it describes the reactions of the formerly enslaved Joseph to his brothers who had sold him into slavery. Carson stated: Joseph allays their fears, and insists he does not want to put himself in the place of God. Then he looks back at the brutal incident when he was so badly treated, and comments, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." The parallelism is remarkable. Joseph does not say that his brothers maliciously sold him into slavery, and that God turned it around, after the fact, to make the story have a happy ending. How could that have been the case, if God’s intent was to bring forth the good of saving many lives? Nor does Joseph suggest that God planned to bring him down to Egypt with first-class treatment all the way, but unfortunately the brothers mucked up His plan somewhat, resulting in the slight hiatus of Joseph spending a decade and a half as a slave or in prison. The story does not read that way. The brothers took certain evil initiatives, and there is no prior mention of Joseph’s travel arrangements. As Joseph explains, God was working sovereignly in the event of his being sold into Egypt, but the brothers’ guilt is not thereby assuaged (they intended to harm Joseph); the brothers were responsible for this action, but God was not thereby reduced to a merely contingent role; and while the brothers were evil, God himself had only good intentions. Carson (1990: 205-206).

The concept here is similar to that of John Calvin whom I mentioned earlier in this thesis. Human beings sin by choice and nature, yet God uses their actions for the greater good. From Carson’s words, the story of Joseph is not merely that God turned the evil will of the brothers into something good, but that God was working sovereignly in willing, in a sense, Joseph’s temporary captivity in order that, eventually, the Hebrew people would be led out of Egypt by Moses. Many Hebrews in Egypt were descendants of Jacob’s sons. In Old Testament Survey it is stated concerning the story of Joseph: "This carefully constructed story, . . . is one long lesson–God’s providence brings to nought the plots of men and turns their evil intent to his own ends." La Sor, Hubbard and Bush (1987: 113).

Another Old Testament passage used by Carson was 1 Kings 8:46ff. He quotes verse 58: At the dedication of the temple, Solomon not only can ask that God will respond to His people in a certain way when they repent of their sin and turn again to Him, but he can also say "May he turn our hearts to him, to walk in all his ways and to keep the commands, decrees and regulations he gave our fathers." Carson (1990: 206). Carson was pointing out that compatibilism, the idea, was a concept known to Solomon as he spoke those words. He knew the human responsibility of the people in Israel to follow God, but also understood that God had the ability to move people’s hearts. Martin noted: ". . . the behavioural condition is made less harsh by the prayer may he turn our hearts to him, but reappears in its stark demand: But your hearts must be fully committed . . ." Martin (1986: 405).

As Martin noted, there are two ideas being put across in the passage, (1) that God has the ability to turn their hearts, and (2) their hearts must be fully committed to God. It appears necessary for both of these concepts to occur for relationships between human beings and God to continue successfully. The sinfulness of human beings in their will seems to mean that God must influence people in order for them to seek him. At the same time, however, God does not force human beings into submission, so there is a need for human beings to follow God willingly. This is not contradiction but it is compatibilism. It could be concluded that once God enlightens the human mind with his spirit, people retain a sinful nature but have the ability to seek the guidance of God, and thus there is human responsibility to obey God as seen in the context of this passage.

Carson stated that Philippians 2:12-13 was an important verse concerning compatibilism: Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed–not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence–continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. This passage is extremely important, as much for what it does not say as for what it does. It does not say that God had done his bit in your salvation, and now it is up to you. Still less does it suggest that because God is working in you "to will and to act according to his good purpose" you should therefore be entirely passive and simply let him take over. Nor is it (as not a few commentators wrongly suggest) that God has done the work of justification in you, and now you must continue with your own sanctification. Paul describes what the Philippians must do as obeying what he has to say, and as working out (not working for!) their own salvation. For assumption is that choice and efforts are required. The "working out" of their salvation includes honestly pursuing the same attitude as that of Christ (2:5), learning to do everything the gospel demands without complaining or arguing (2:14), and much more. But at the same time, they must learn that it is God himself who is at work in them "to will and to act according to his good purpose." God’s sovereignty extends over both their willing and their actions. Carson (1990: 210-211).

According to Carson’s interpretation, God completes all the work for salvation but the pursuing of a Christ like attitude is the working out of one’s salvation; however, Ralph P. Martin, in his Philippians commentary stated concerning this passage: "It seems clear, however, that the true exegesis must begin with a definition of salvation, not in personal terms but in regard to the corporate life of the Philippian church." Martin (1987: 115). H. C. Hewlett agreed and stated: "This salvation is a present one, and not so much individual as collective." Hewlett (1986: 1445). Even if the salvation described in the context of working out is more corporate in nature than it is personal, the compatibilism idea is not dead in this passage for God is still requiring human beings to obey him on a corporate level. As well, any corporate entity is made up of individuals, so if there are not enough individuals working with Christ in obedience then corporate obedience will not be possible.

Compatibilism Discussed First, Carson rightly, in my view, defends compatibilism as logical but somewhat of a mystery. (1) Most people who call themselves compatibilists are not so brash as to claim that they can tell you exactly how the two propositions I set forth in the last section fit together. All they claim is that, if terms are defined carefully enough, it is possible to show that there is no necessary contradiction between them. In other words, it is outlining some of the "unknowns" that are involved and show that these "unknowns" allow for both propositions to be true. But precisely because there are large "unknowns" at stake, we cannot show how the two propositions cohere. I think this analysis is correct. But what it means is that I am still going to be left with mysteries when I am finished. All that I hope to achieve is to locate these mysteries more precisely, and to show that they are big enough to allow me to claim that when the Bible assumes compatibilism it is not adopting nonsensical positions. Carson (1990: 212-213).

I am in agreement with Carson’s concept here. Compatibilism, similar to the idea of God’s existence, has elements of mystery. Christianity does not have to prove that concepts such as these are empirically valid. There are some logical ideas that are neither empirically provable nor, through deduction, can these ideas be completely understood; however, it can be seen in Scripture that compatibilism is taught. There is both God’s sovereignty and human choice and responsibility. One does not cancel out the other. Reason also shows us that human beings have free choice, to some degree, yet there are external factors which influence these choices since human beings are limited and not all powerful. Certainly God could be one of these external factors that influences free choice without determining human choice.

Second, Carson noted that compatibilism being true means God stands behind good and evil, but in different ways. To put it bluntly, God stands behind evil in such a way that not even evil takes place outside the bounds of his sovereignty, yet the evil is not morally chargeable to him: it is always chargeable to secondary agents, to secondary causes. On the other hand, God stands behind good in such a way that it not only takes place within the bounds of his sovereignty, but it is always chargeable to him, and only derivatively to secondary agents. In other words, if I sin, I cannot possibly do so outside the bounds of God’s sovereignty (or the many texts already cited have no meaning), but I alone am responsible for that sin–or perhaps I and those who tempted me, led me astray and the like. God is not to be blamed. Carson (1990: 213). Carson, like Calvin, sees God as willing evil for the greater good, but God remains untainted by sin. This certainly is a mysterious concept but logical. All analogies break down but compatibilism can be deduced in creation. It is as though God’s creation is a chess game. He has sovereignty over the game yet is one of the players, and is the chess master. No matter what moves God’s opponent makes against him, God will ultimately prevail. The moves are freely made by the opponent, but the nature of the game created by God, who is infinite, means that God is in ultimate control and he will not lose the match. The creation, like this chess game, is God’s domain, so it is logical for him to create an opposition and give opponents free will, yet still work out his ultimate purposes without contradicting his perfect nature.

Some points on Carson’s use of mystery with regard to compatibilism. First, intellectually, I would prefer that the term mystery never be mentioned when formulating theological and philosophical concepts. However, in regard to God we are dealing with an infinite being who has chosen not to provide in Scripture, or anywhere, his specific viewpoint on how he can be sovereign and yet deem human beings responsible regarding the problem of evil. Yet, as Carson’s states compatibilism is not an illogical concept and is Scriptural.

Second, Carson’s purpose is writing his text was not to provide a theological defence of the concept of compatibilism. I think that if one was to write such a defence, then a further logical, speculative theology could be developed. The term mystery then could be largely avoided, but some questions about God would still remain unanswered. In my view, because of God’s infinite transcendent nature, all attempts to try to completely understand him will fail. This is true regardless of theological bias, but I think God has revealed himself somewhat in Scripture.

Third, my purpose in writing this thesis is to review four authors and survey their two denominations. I would perhaps, in the future, like to write a theological defence and try to somewhat eliminate the mystery of compatibilism, but this is not my mandate here.

Note I wrote the PhD obviously to accomplish this goal and then there is this blog forward and potential other writing.

Fourth, I think Thiessen’s point on God’s omnipotence can be helpful here. He stated: By the omnipotence of God we mean that He is able to do whatever He wills; but since His will is limited by His nature, this means that God can do everything that is in harmony with His perfections... The possession of omnipotence does not, however, imply the exercise of His power, certainly not the exercise of all His power. God can do what He will to do; but He does not necessarily will to do anything. That is, God has power over His power; otherwise He would act of necessity and cease to be a free being. Nor does omnipotence exclude but rather imply the power of self-limitation. God is limited to some extent by the free will of His rational creatures. That is why He did not keep sin out of the universe by a display of His power; that is also why He does not save anyone by force. Thiessen (1956: 126).

With Thiessen’s idea, God has divine sovereignty, but for the sake of human beings fulfilling their purpose, he limits himself in order that they can freely choose to sin. God could remain in full control of his creation and use evil for the greater good, yet still will freedom for humanity to disobey him, and thus he could rightly hold them responsible for their sinful actions. God is limited by his free creatures by his choice, but he still has every right to hold them responsible for sin against him, and has the power for his ultimate plans to take place.

CALVIN, J. (1539)(1998) Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book II.

CALVIN, J. (1543)(1998) The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, Translated by G.I. Davies, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.

CALVIN, J. (1553)(1952) Job, Translated by Leroy Nixon, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House. 

CARSON, D.A. (1981) Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility, Atlanta, John Knox Press.

CARSON, D.A. (1990) How Long, O Lord?, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.

LA SOR, W.S., D.A HUBBARD and F.W BUSH (1987) Old Testament Survey, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

MARTIN, R.P. (1987) Philippians, in Leon Canon Morris (gen. ed.), Tyndale New Testament Commentary, Leicester/Grand Rapids, Inter-Varsity Press/William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

THIESSEN, H.C. (1956) Introductory Lectures in Systematic Theology, Grand Rapids, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

Facebook-It must be very warm in Europe I deduce by the plate and at least the cats are not on the hood.

49 comments:

  1. Lol'ing @ Creative SUCKERS

    ReplyDelete
  2. It is as though God’s creation is a chess game. He has sovereignty over the game yet is one of the players, and is the chess master. No matter what moves God’s opponent makes against him, God will ultimately prevail.

    Yes, and in a sense, the sacrificial death of God the Son on the cross was checkmate, though the game still has to be played out to it's end, but the victory has already been won.

    And regarding that day when God the Son sacrificed Himself and took upon Himself the sins of human beings:

    Darkness covered the land, like the Bible says...

    According to the Bible, after Jesus was crucified, there was a great earthquake and it became dark for hours. And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. — Mark 15:33

    A purported letter from Pontius Pilate to Tiberius claimed the darkness had started at the sixth hour, covered the whole world and, during the subsequent evening, the full moon resembled blood for the entire night.

    Other accounts by many separate historians and eyewitnesses corroborate the account.

    Some have tried to explain it away as a natural phenomenon such as a solar eclipse. That's probably what most of us have always thought it was.

    However, Jesus was crucified at Passover, which takes place during a full moon, and an eclipse requires a new moon.

    The new moon is the monthly phase of the moon where it is completely unlit (or as near to being completely unlit as possible that month). If you think about it, this is going to happen when the moon is between the earth and the sun. A new moon happens when it is as close as it can be to casting a shadow on the earth.

    In other words, as seen from the Earth, a solar eclipse occurs when the Moon passes between the Sun and Earth, and the Moon fully or partially blocks ("occults") the Sun. This can happen only at new moon, when the Sun and the Moon are in conjunction as seen from Earth in an alignment referred to as syzygy.

    A full moon is a complete round moon.

    The full moon will come on the 15th day of the lunar month.

    Passover is based on the Jewish calendar, a lunar calendar that has twelve 28-day months.

    Passover occurs from the 15th to the 21st of the month of Nisan.

    A new moon is a moon that is completely hidden from sight.

    The new moon will come on the first day of the lunar month.

    Since Passover is from the 15th to the 21st of the month, it could not be a new moon, because a new moon comes on the 1st day of the month. It had to be a full moon, and
    an eclipse requires a new moon!

    Therefore, it could not have been an eclipse!

    This was a supernatural event!
    There was an earthquake, darkness covered the whole land for 3 hours, and the moon resembled blood for the entire night!

    THREE HOURS!!! A total solar eclipse lasts for only a maximum of a few minutes at any location, because the moon's umbra moves eastward at over 1700 km/h. Totality can never last more than 7 min 31 sec., and is usually shorter than 5 minutes. During each millennium there are typically fewer than 10 total solar eclipses exceeding 7 minutes. A SOLAR ECLIPSE DOES NOT LAST 3 HOURS!!

    This was something unique! It was no mere eclipse!

    ReplyDelete
  3. Another disaster spam email header from the condo downstairs.

    Well, that is eight posts this month on this blog for the first time, plus an academic journal article sent in for review this week, mind you there is a 90% rejection rate, but damn I'm good.;) There is the opportunity for revision as far as I understand.

    Okay, well, good in some ways, thank you Lord...

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  4. Doubtless God that created the laws of science and nature can alter them as he pleases. This may be done for a time as 'supernatural'.

    Thank you, Jeff.

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  7. I somehow doubt these are too short...

    The work is non-exhaustive and the comment section allows for more work to be provided.

    Cheers

    By the way, it is good to have 'The Jeff' back commenting more. Good to have old commenters back and some new ones.

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  12. I just posted this on my friend Russell's blog in England. I will edit out his part and type in an explanation in bold:

    Sovereignty Approach Definition

    Edwards

    Restoration Why Later

    In regard to the sovereignty of God

    If not then there needs to be another explanation for first cause and origins and I do not think atheism or agnosticism suffices.

    The same type of critique that would be of Christianity would be of those worldviews which is what I basically did with my MPhil and PhD theses.

    Anger with God

    You, me, and many other persons of various worldviews, Russell.

    I do not think it is ineptitude as God has a definite directed plan, but as I have noted on my blogs every person from 'embryo to elderly' is under a death sentence. The atoning work and resurrection of Christ, presented in Biblical history is the way out eventually from the situation for those in Christ.

    But doubtless, yes, God wills may harsh things, and I have not backed down from that on my blogs and I have noted that evangelicals often are too simplistic in how they deal with these issues. But I maintain that God has good motives and perfect attributes.

    Public opinion against God

    So? Now we really are not going to do our philosophy by general consensus are we? What happens when there is an issue where you disagree with it Russell? Lol.;>

    Ah...

    Only need Jesus the man

    A mere man without the power of the infinite God is useless to cover sin, defeat death and provide everlasting life.

    Have a good weekend my friend...

    ReplyDelete
  13. Further

    Evidence from science

    Science does not disprove God. Does not follow. There is a danger of scientism.

    Historically based non-fictional Scripture would not be equated with a fictional fairy.

    Either would philosophical deductions in regard to a first-cause.

    God is cruel

    I can agree cruel things are willingly caused by God, in a sense. But again I hold that his motives are good. Prime example, how he treated himself on the cross and the end result, the Gospel.

    Consensus

    We really need to be careful with consensus. Remember many persons in the world are theists and then there are all those Muslims. And neither one of us agrees with Islam.

    God and Abraham

    Remember God is infinite. The child was never killed. But as I noted, God does have the power over life and death, but he never did have Abraham child sacrifice in that case.

    Theology

    Theology is far more than that, I have four degrees (and did the grunt work), Russell, it is also the philosophy of God, Scripture, related, recognized as such in academic disciplines.

    The Bible

    The book needs to be understood as well. This requires academic study for in-depth.

    Have a good weekend.

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  17. Interesting reference to the story of Joseph as an illustration of compatibilism. I often thought that the story of Joseph was poorly exposited in church sermons when I was growing up. Perhaps many preachers are flustered by the mysteries of God.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Yes, because many evangelical Western preachers are free will evangelicals.

    Note: We are not discussing Joseph Smith...

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
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  20. 'Your eLibrary membership renewal has failed'

    Very good news.

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  23. Compatibilism is a good thing in marriage. Or at least compatibility is.

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  25. My friend Russell from England has allowed me to paste his comments which I will. I will then answer, then I need to take Mom shopping...

    Russell C.J. Duffy said... Final point foirst. "Thebook was made to be read. Wrong. It was, after centuries had passed, published in Latin. That langauge was not common usage among the working man but only the elite. The church took control of how they thought the common man should receive God's wisdom. It wasn't until Thomas Cromwell, after Henry VIII declared his independence of the Catholic church (Paul's only Christian faith of choice and the originators of that faith))that it was transposed into English. The King James bible is a beautiful work of prose. It's translation meant censure as much within the earlier text was seen as being obscene by those days standards. There was never any thought of sharing the so called wisdom of the bible to the common man unless it went first through the corrupt offices of the church. Hardly the peripatetic

    ReplyDelete
  26. Quote:

    NT

    'The Role of Textual Criticism

    No original manuscripts of the original Greek New Testament have been found. However, a large number of ancient manuscript copies have been discovered, and modern translations of the New Testament are based on these copies. As one would expect, they contain some scribal errors. In fact, "there is not a single copy wholly free from mistakes."

    It is the task of textual criticism, therefore, to study and compare the available manuscripts in order to discern which of the variations conforms the closest to the original. Bruce Metzger of Princeton University, a prominent modern textual critic, describes the role of textual criticism this way:'

    This is how the Bible was put together primarily as opposed to politically.

    NT

    NT Canon

    'W.R.F. Browning explains that canon comes from the Greek word for 'rule' or 'standard'. In both the Old and New Testaments canon formation was gradual and controversial. Browning (1996: 57). Browning notes some New Testament era books were quoted by Church Fathers, although the texts were not canonized. Browning (1996: 57). Jesus Christ's teachings and story was passed along in oral tradition and then eventually written down in the Four Gospels, and sidelined rival versions. Browning (1996: 57). The Epistles from Apostles and their scribes were preserved by the churches and soon formed a collection along with the Gospels. Browning (1996: 57).'

    ReplyDelete
  27. Russell C.J. Duffy said...
    Final point first - two and final. Understanding of a book (New Testament) that one was not meant to read makes little sense. Less in fact than the book itself. Written or compiled some seventy years after death of said messiah it is nothing like a historical document but rather a series of disjointed 'echoed memoirs.' The book, as stated previously, was not published at time of events but hundreds of years later.
    There is well documented historical books extant that paints a very different picture of that region and of the time of Jesus. Not that Catholic faith much likes to hear a history of Tiberius reign in Middle East as it was taken by Jews.
    To say the bible is a history is like saying 'Lord of The Rings' is a pre-history. One is pure fiction the other man made, interpretive male oriented, myth making.
    It can easily be explained should one wish to have the nerve to do so. The men who interpreted what they thought were Gods words were simple, primitive nomads who did not have the benefit of our modern education and therefore misinterpreted vast swathes of what they were told.
    Moses? What Moses? Who he? No historical references whatsever.
    Now God, or EA does have a history and one that is open to discussion along with all those other mid Eastern deities created before the rise of Judaism.
    3 August 2013 21:22

    ReplyDelete
  28. 'Written or compiled some seventy years after death of said messiah it is nothing like a historical document but rather a series of disjointed 'echoed memoirs.' The book, as stated previously, was not published at time of events but hundreds of years later.'

    False. Remember separate books later compiled into one.

    Chronology of New Testament Books

    Example:

    'James - 50 A.D.
    First Thessalonians - 52-53.
    Second Thessalonians - 52-53.
    Galatians - 55.'

    ReplyDelete
  29. Russell C.J. Duffy said...
    "The child was never killed." Indeed he wasn't. He was lead to belive he was though. He was, if the bible is, as you say, factual, taken to Ye Olde Barbecue, placed on the logs, had oils poured upon him, and believing his father was going to light the thing because Daddy had heard God tell him to do it. Abuse. Abuse. Abuse.
    Did Yahweh whisper sotte vocé in the boys ear "It's all a big tease son so don't be scared, just play along."? NO. He was made to belive that some unseen deity wanted him burnt alive.
    Either the guys who took this word got it wrong (I'd like to think they did) or God sucks and big time.
    3 August 2013 21:27

    ReplyDelete
  30. It was a foreshadowing of the atoning work of Christ in the New Testament.

    This is something explained at Bible School. And sometimes preaching.

    This is where there is a need for academic Biblical and theological education to see the ties here between the two stories and two covenants.

    ReplyDelete
  31. I like certain Muslims too, have been friends.

    I dislike Orthodox Islam.

    It is intolerant and extreme although I am not a scholar.

    Organized religion is a necessity as disorganized would be chaos, in regard to theology and mission.

    A key is to have a proper revealed understanding of God and not simply a human made one which would be useless in everlasting terms.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Russell C.J. Duffy said...
    "I can agree cruel things are willingly caused by God, in a sense. But again I hold that his motives are good. Prime example, how he treated himself on the cross and the end result, the Gospel."
    If God is wise. so clever and so just then how come he is incapable of sorting wheat form chaff? The bad guys from the good? Why did he blitz whole towns killing innocent women and children along with those guilty?
    Sounds a bit like Hitler (again) to me. Or perhaps Churchill with Dresden.
    And of course this brings us neatly to the whole key issue.
    Where is there proof that God exists? What it the point of God?
    As for the cross, thousands died upon that device and still there is no proof of a man called Jesus (not Hebrew name) being executed in such a fashion. There is, as stated previously historical records of that period that include many of the players found in the bible but oddly not of that Anglicised Jesus chappie.
    Lack of evidence does not fact make. The only pale substitute is theology which in point of fact is highly intelligent people pontificating over a book not written at the time and published centuries after it supposedly happened.
    3 August 2013 21:50

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  33. 'If God is wise. so clever and so just then how come he is incapable of sorting wheat form chaff? The bad guys from the good? Why did he blitz whole towns killing innocent women and children along with those guilty?'

    As noted all are under the death sentence. If we do not die at zygote we die at elderly, but of course it is much more tragic for a child to die, agreed! No one has complete innocence in this life because of sinful nature and this making persons not fit for the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 15).

    However, I do not think children go to everlasting hell, because they do not make conscious adult decisions to sin within nature as those God finally judges outside of Christ are judged for deeds (Revelation 20).

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  34. Russell C.J. Duffy said...
    Science certainly does not disprove God. It ask questions. And from those question challenges itself and then continues to so over and over until it has as hard a factual body as you could possibly want.It discovers things that could quite easily have been conceived by a great creator who has allowed, with the passage of time, human knowledge to grow so as to better understand things such as DNA.
    DNA would surely have been created by God? I am accepting he exists here for want of argument. Said DNA proves that men, ALL men come from same root source. Broadly speaking there are two races on this planet...blacks and lesser blacks. Indisputable fact accepted in every quarter.
    The same is also true of evolution. God, again taking his existence for granted, did not make the world in six days (another case of man misinterpreting messages) but over a vast period of time.
    We Hominds are related to, but quite separate from our fellow primates. We all came from the sea originally and evolved into what we now see living as we do. This again is accepted in every quarter with a sound historical reference point. All heads of churches agree that this is the case.
    The only thing that is theory, for evolution if not theory but fact, is if we evolved or was there a form of mutation involved.
    All of this would, or might have been, part of God's greater scheme and is now accepted by all faiths as being HIS work.
    The only thing missing is God.
    There is still no sign and certainly no evidence of such a being. Even then science still maintains the upper hand for it does not say the existence of God is impossible for in fact it is, but what science does say is that such a beings existence is highly improbable.
    Without proof we cannot convict the serial killer (speaking of the biblical God again I fancy) nor can we imprison the pedophile; why then should we blindly follow a God for which there is not a single shred of evidence and who only comes way down in a vast list of deities stretching back thousands of years?
    3 August 2013 22:09

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  35. 'Without proof we cannot convict the serial killer (speaking of the biblical God again I fancy) nor can we imprison the pedophile; why then should we blindly follow a God for which there is not a single shred of evidence and who only comes way down in a vast list of deities stretching back thousands of years?'

    There is the historical Scripture, religious history and the Church Fathers. That is evidence.

    'God, again taking his existence for granted, did not make the world in six days (another case of man misinterpreting messages) but over a vast period of time.'

    Most conservative Genesis scholars see Genesis 1-3 as figurative literal, not myth and so the number of days is not necessarily to be taken as plain literal or a science text. It is religious history.

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  36. Russell C.J. Duffy said...
    Finally. I return to Islam. It is every bit as good and as flawed as Christianity. Fear of it has gripped the western world misrepresenting it as some right wing theocracy. It is nothing of the kind anymore than REAL Christianity is right winged, white and living wholly in the west.
    Time to open hearts along with intellects and realise the criminal dis-service organised faith has done to modern man. Time to follow your God of choice without the need of temples, priest, mullahs and Rabbis, time to talk to whatever you believe to be God direct and not through the ritual and dogma dictated by higher, controlling offices whose only concern is not spreading the word of God but controlling mankind.
    3 August 2013 22:19

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  37. It is more flawed by far, by far, Russell.

    It is a newer religion.

    Yes they claim that Jesus was a prophet and not God and yet he claimed to be eternal John 8: 58. If he is eternal, he is God and therefore would be a false prophet in Islam, if they took the New Testament in context rather than twist it.

    Islam would have more credibility if it would have stated that the Hebrew Bible and New Testament were human texts and not divine because it is left with contradicting previous texts and being the newer texts.

    Just because it has roughly the same amount of followers as Christianity does not make it equally reasonable.

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  38. And Dr. Dawkins has his academic education as a scholar in the Hebrew Bible or Religion to back that up does he?

    Oh...

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  39. Thank you for posting your debate on your blog, an enjoyable read and intellectually stimulating!
    -Eager Reader-

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  40. Dear Russell, as you know full well Richard Dawkins does not have any such degrees or qualifications. Why would he? As a scientist, a scholar, a highly intelligent man he is as equally capable of analysing the bogus from the real. You do not need any such qualifications to read something that exists withour proof. There is no such thing. No proof. No hint of there being a God here, there on anywhere within the universe.
    Such a deity, when Monty Python stop dancing the surreal waltz through the false corridors of theology, exists in one place and one place only.
    A man who speaks to Napoleon is thought deranged. A man who talks to God devout.
    With due respect you and those other misguided souls who pour for hours over a book that is in the first part vile and in the second confused is simply a waste of good intellect.
    Why on earth would any sane person want to learn about something for which there is no proof whilst claiming it is true?
    Fine if you are studying a myth, which in point of fact it is, but not then to go claiming that God is there but you have to believe in him first.
    This whole dialogue is such a waste of time and energy. It goes no where. It does improve human morals but only, from the pages of history, devalues them.
    The only point this conversation, albeit via a blog site, has is, much like a church, a nice little place for those of similar minds to gather. A sort of club with obscure rules and a deity who makes no sense.
    The quotes go round and round as though they mean something but they do not. Mark? Really? A Jew called Mark?
    Get the proof and then I will listen. Until then thank goodness for Dawkin, Hawkins, Einstein and Darwin and good old common sense.

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  41. The other thing you will note should you visit my blog, there is no comment moderation, no editing of visitors comments.

    Sadly, until proofs are submitted to me of the existence of jolly old Yahweh, then I fail to see any point in discussing, as fun as it is, something that will only have me sectioned as insane.

    If you like fairy tales and myth then please read my short story "The Vagrant God." A pleasant little tale that sees God return to earth after she left it aeons ago in the care of her chief angel Samael. Like all good romances the two get together in the end.

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  42. Hi Russell, thank you

    'The other thing you will note should you visit my blog, there is no comment moderation, no editing of visitors comments.'

    First, I receive 18, 000 to 34, 000 pageviews a month on my blogs including spam. If I did not have comment moderation there would be comments such as below, and I do not usually publish such trash because of my often conservative audience and personal preference but I will here to prove a point...

    This just came in as comment:

    'gay sites gay shit gay game gay tattoos gay'

    I deal will all persons that are reasonable. I debate you here and recently debated 'Looney' on the Epicurus post. I have debated Jeff. I have debated LDS, Watchtower, other cultists and Christians. I will not go on and on with circular debates and will not debate persons that are using ad hominem against me. I think this is reasonable. I reserve the right to delete and censor, if needed.

    I also reserve the right to edit my own work.

    I edit comments from emails and that is my right if persons are blocked senders and keep sending me spam and my Mother spam and I use part of the emails as a public service to show others questionable practices.

    No apology here.

    It is also entertainment value, I admit.

    ‘Sadly, until proofs are submitted to me of the existence of jolly old Yahweh, then I fail to see any point in discussing, as fun as it is, something that will only have me sectioned as insane.’

    Too late, we already have discussed it. Lol.

    You simply will not accept the Scripture as historical, religious history, Church Fathers and related.

    Remember I studied critics of Christianity and theism for twelve years. Many of these PhD level philosophers.

    ’Dear Russell, as you know full well Richard Dawkins does not have any such degrees or qualifications. Why would he? As a scientist, a scholar, a highly intelligent man he is as equally capable of analysing the bogus from the real. You do not need any such qualifications to read something that exists withour proof. There is no such thing. No proof. No hint of there being a God here, there on anywhere within the universe.
    Such a deity, when Monty Python stop dancing the surreal waltz through the false corridors of theology, exists in one place and one place only.’

    We have been through this before. Dr. Dawkins is not a preeminent academic critic of Christianity or theism, as in he is not a philosopher. He is part of the new atheism.

    D.Z. Phillips that I posted on recently would be one, as would be Flew, Mackie, William Rowe, David Hume an empiricist. Much better sources.

    One does need qualifications as a related academic with some genuine understanding of academic religious studies and theology to properly judge it.

    Common sense is not enough.

    Even Kant did not accept empiricism as being able to rule out God, and yes I wrote on Kant in my PhD and this blog.

    By definition it would be error to look for a non-physical God empirically, it requires more philosophical knowledge. It requires revelation, theology and philosophy.

    To your credit, Russell, you are more of a friend to me as a Blogger and personally than many Christians and for that I thank you and respect you.

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  43. Finally:

    Quote:

    ‘I just posted this on my friend Russell's blog in England. I will edit out his part and type in an explanation in bold:’

    That is standard for me when I post on another’s blog, I would not take their copyrighted material and post it without permission.

    Yes I borrow and cite from sites such as CNN where it is common to cite, but fellow blogger’s may not want this done and so I think it is better to take the side of caution.

    Also Russell, reads the blog and could have seen the comments and I did make him aware of the comments.

    Eventually via email I received permission from Russell.

    Therefore:

    Quote:

    ‘My friend Russell from England has allowed me to paste his comments which I will. I will then answer,”

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