Notre-Dame, Lyon France (trekearth)
Irenaeus was a Priest in Lyon, France
Lyon Bridge (trekearth)
Lyon (trekearth)
Lyon (trekearth)
Irenaeus
It is widely accepted that Hick is writing a theodicy within the Irenean tradition.[1] To Hick, Irenaeus believed God’s creation of humanity was the initial stage in a process that would lead to persons ultimately possessing the likeness of God.[2] Hick quotes Irenaeus in Against Heresies where humanity, in its original state is called immature.[3] Irenaeus (c 175-185)(2005) in Against Heresies deduces that God could have made humanity originally perfect, but the newness and immaturity of his actual creation made it impossible to grant.[4]
In Proof of Apostolic Preaching (c185)(2005), Irenaeus notes that human beings were as children in the beginning and were easily led astray by the deceiver.[5] A child as such is immature and needs to grow towards perfection.[6] Hick agrees with these concepts and suggests that the approach of Irenaeus is a rejection of the Augustinian idea of a fall in which human beings are viewed as morally perfect beings who rebelled against God.[7] Instead, humanity in a child-like way wandered away from the rule of their creator in a rather innocent fashion.[8] According to Hick, for Irenaeus the breaking away of God’s children from their creator was not so much a crime, but a youthful error,[9] and Hick views this process as a divinely appointed situation for human beings to develop towards the ultimate likeness of God.[10]
It seems clear that Hick and Irenaeus are in agreement that original humanity was spiritually and morally immature.[11] There does, however, appear in Ireneaus’ writings the idea of a loss of moral right standing with God due to an initial disobedience. Irenaeus (c.175-185)(1998) writes, that the disobedience of one man caused many to become sinners and forfeit life, so it was needed for one man to justify and provide salvation to all.[12] This seems to support the possibility Irenaeus believed in original sin that occurred as human beings disobeyed God for the first time.[13] Original sin historically views persons as being born alienated from God,[14] assuming that the sin nature of the literal and historical Adam and Eve has spread to all descendents.[15] Calvin reasonably claims solidarity with Augustine’s view,[16] and indicates that the consequences of original sin means persons do not have the power to resist, as the will is in bondage until set free.[17] Augustine writes there is a ‘chain of original sin’ by which persons die in Adam.[18] He adds that in this condition, persons were born into misery.[19] Erickson suggests that due to Adam’s sin, all human beings received a corrupted nature,[20] and this is viewed as the imputation of original sin to persons.[21] All persons are not personally responsible for Adam’s sin, but all have inherited a corrupt nature.[22]
The doctrine of original sin is related to the fall concept and is viewed by many traditionalists as being a result of the fall.[23] The fall has already been discussed within Chapters Two and Three and therefore an extended discussion of the subject would be redundant. Gebara has a non-traditional perspective and cautiously suggests that original sin could be the somber experience of the transcendence and immanence of evil permeating through existence.[24] With this view evil could be the sin that engulfs all of God’s creation.[25] F.R. Tennant (1906) rejects a traditional doctrine of original sin[26] as he writes that the doctrine is self-condemned as the idea involves original guilt.[27] He reasons that guilt is only applicable to someone who has willingly committed an act,[28] and I would agree. I do not think that all human beings are guilty of the sin of Adam and Eve, or if one prefers, the first persons that disobeyed God.[29] I accept the doctrine of original sin in that the corrupted nature of humanity will inevitably lead to the human choice to commit wrong actions.[30] Tennant’s concept is to reject hypothetical prior causes of ‘sin’[31] and instead views human evil as the normal process of development that takes place in the human race.[32] Moral law would need to be established as humanity gradually develops over centuries.[33]
If Adam and Eve (my view), or the first human beings, disobeyed God and humanity became sinful in Irenaeus’ theology,[34] this means previously persons were not sinful and had been acceptable in the presence of God.[35] In Proof of Apostolic Preaching as previously noted, humanity is described in terms of children that were led astray by the deceiver.[36] They were influenced and transformed from a position of being right with God morally, to a position of being at a wrong place morally with God.[37] This indicates that Irenaeus believed human beings lost their original glorious place of stature and fellowship with God, although not a fall from a perfect, mature righteousness, but rather a departure from living in obedience to God.[38] For Irenaeus, through human disobedience, Adam and Eve were no longer acceptable to live in God’s Eden and were cast out.[39] If Irenaeus did not agree with the Augustinian position concerning the original perfect sinless nature of humanity,[40] he at least seemingly would agree that human beings had lost their moral position and right standing with their maker.[41] Harvard Professor, Everett Ferguson (1996) in his article ‘Irenaeus’ claims Irenaeus believed that what was lost in the disobedience because of the first Adam, was restored through the second Adam, Jesus Christ.[42] This again appears to make it possible that although Irenaeus and Hick have a similar view on the original immaturity of humanity,[43] that to Irenaeus the first human beings lost a right standing with God because of disobedience,[44] forfeiting a life of abundance with God.[45] Clearly it is plausible that Irenaeus would view this as some type of fall or departure from grace.[46] This does not mean that Irenaeus held to an Augustinian view of the fall,[47] but it appears Irenaeus understood human beings as being morally inferior to what they were previous to their initial sin against God.[48]
[1] Badham (2003: 27).
[2] Hick (1970: 218). Irenaeus (c 175-185)(2005: Book IV: Chapter 39: 2).
[3] Irenaeus (c 175-185)(2005: Book IV: Chapter 39: 2).
[4] Irenaeus (c 175-185)(2005: Book IV: Chapter 39: 2).
[5] Irenaeus (c 185)(2005: 14).
[6] Irenaeus (c 185)(2005: 14).
[7] Hick in Davis (2001: 40).
[8] Hick (1970: 220-221).
[9] Hick (1970: 220-221).
[10] Hick in Davis (2001: 41).
[11] Irenaeus (c 175-185)(2005: Book IV: Chapter 39: 2). Hick (1970: 218).
[12] Irenaeus (c.175-185)(1998: Book III, Chapter 18: 7).
[13] Irenaeus (c.175-185)(1998: Book III, Chapter 18: 7).
[14] Grenz, Guretzki, and Nordling (1999: 87).
[15] Grenz, Guretzki, and Nordling (1999: 87).
[16] Calvin (1543)(1996: 105).
[17] Calvin (1543)(1996: 105).
[18] Augustine (398-399)(1992: 82).
[19] Augustine (398-399)(1992: 197).
[20] Erickson (1994: 638).
[21] Erickson (1994: 638).
[22] Erickson (1994: 638).
[23] Erickson (1994: 915). Thiessen (1956: 253).
[24] Gebara (2002: 58-59).
[25] Gebara (2002: 58-59).
[26] Tennant (1906: 20).
[27] Tennant (1906: 20).
[28] Tennant (1906: 20).
[29] Tennant (1906: 20).
[30] Augustine (398-399)(1992: 82). Erickson (1994: 638).
[31] Tennant (1906: 20).
[32] Tennant (1906: 81).
[33] Tennant (1906: 81).
[34] Irenaeus (c.175-185)(1998: Book III, Chapter 18: 7).
[35] Irenaeus (c.175-185)(1998: Book III, Chapter 18: 7).
[36] Irenaeus (c.185-2005: 14).
[37] Irenaeus (c.175-185)(1998: Book III, Chapter 18: 7).
[38] Irenaeus (c.175-185)(1998: Book III, Chapter 18: 7).
[39] Irenaeus (c.175-185)(1998: Book III, Chapter 18: 7).
[40] Hick’s conjecture.
[41] Irenaeus (c.175-185)(1998: Book III, Chapter 18: 7).
[42] Ferguson (1996: 569).
[43] Irenaeus (c 175-185)(2005: Book IV: Chapter 39: 2). Hick (1970: 218).
[44] Irenaeus (c.175-185)(1998: Book III, Chapter 18: 7).
[45] Irenaeus (c.175-185)(1998: Book III, Chapter 18: 7).
[46] Irenaeus (c.175-185)(1998: Book III, Chapter 18: 7).
[47] It may be closer to an Augustinian view than John Hick would be willing to admit.
[48] Irenaeus (c.175-185)(1998: Book III, Chapter 18: 7).
AUGUSTINE (388-395)(1964) On Free Choice of the Will, Translated by Anna S.Benjamin and L.H. Hackstaff, Upper Saddle River, N.J., Prentice Hall.
AUGUSTINE (398-399)(1992) Confessions, Translated by Henry Chadwick, Oxford, Oxford University Press.
AUGUSTINE (400-416)(1987)(2004) On the Trinity, Translated by Reverend Arthur West Haddan, in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series One, Volume 3, Denver, The Catholic Encyclopedia.
AUGUSTINE (421)(1998) Enchiridion, Translated by J.F. Shaw, Denver, The Catholic Encyclopedia.
AUGUSTINE (426)(1958) The City of God, Translated by Gerald G. Walsh, Garden City, New York, Image Books.
AUGUSTINE (427)(1997) On Christian Doctrine, Translated by D.W. Robertson Jr., Upper Saddle River, N.J., Prentice Hall.
AUGUSTINE (427b)(1997) On Christian Teaching, Translated by R.P.H. Green, Oxford, Oxford University Press.
BADHAM, PAUL (2003) ‘Profile: John Hick’, in Epworth Review, Volume 30, Number 1, pp. 24-31. Peterborough, England, Methodist Publishing House.
CALVIN, JOHN (1539)(1998) The Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book IV, Translated by Henry Beveridge, Grand Rapids, The Christian Classic Ethereal Library, Wheaton College.
CALVIN, JOHN (1543)(1996) The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, Translated by G.I. Davies, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.
ERICKSON, MILLARD (1994) Christian Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.
FERGUSON, EVERETT (1996) ‘Irenaeus’, in Walter A. Elwell (ed.), Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Books.
GEBARA, IVONE (2002) Out of the Depths, Translated by Ann Patrick Ware, Minneapolis, Fortress Press.
GRENZ, STANLEY J., DAVID GURETZKI AND CHERITH FEE NORDLING (1999) Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms, Downers Grove, Ill., InterVarsity Press.
HICK, JOHN (1970) Evil and The God of Love, London, The Fontana Library.
HICK, JOHN (1978) ‘Present and Future Life’, Harvard Theological Review, Volume 71, Number 1-2, January-April, Harvard University.
HICK, JOHN (1981) Encountering Evil, Stephen T. Davis (ed.), Atlanta, John Knox Press.
HICK, JOHN (1993) ‘Afterword’ in GEIVETT, R. DOUGLAS (1993) Evil and the Evidence for God, Philadelphia, Temple University Press.
HICK, JOHN (1993) The Metaphor of God Incarnate, Louisville, Kentucky, John Know Press.
HICK, JOHN (1994) Death and Eternal Life, Louisville, Kentucky, John Knox Press.
HICK, JOHN (1999) ‘Life after Death’, in Alan Richardson and John Bowden (eds.), A New Dictionary of Christian Theology, Kent, SCM Press.
IRENAEUS. (c 175-185)(1998) ‘Against Heresies’, in The Catholic Encyclopedia, Denver, The Catholic Encyclopedia.
IRENAEUS. (c 175-185)(2005) Against Heresies, in The Catholic Encyclopedia, Denver, The Catholic Encyclopedia.
IRENAEUS (c 185)(2005) Proof of Apostolic Preaching, Translated by J. Armitage Robinson, London, The Macmillan CO.
TENNANT, F.R. (1906) The Origin and Propagation of Sin, Cambridge, Cambridge University Press.
TENNANT, F.R. (1930)(1956) Philosophical Theology, Cambridge, Cambridge University Press.
THIESSEN, HENRY C. (1956) Introductory Lectures in Systematic Theology, Grand Rapids, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
End
Not where I would take a date, or be taken.
Night image
Hola amigo, que belleza de imagenes. Un placer estar aqui. Cuidate.
ReplyDeleteGoogle translate:
ReplyDelete'Hello friend, beautiful images. A pleasure to be here. Beware.'
Thank you very kindly, Poetiza. I think I like the 'Beware' part too even though via translation.;)
Bing translator translates "Cuidate" to: "Take care."
ReplyDeleteIt sounds to me like Irenaeus' position is really just a nuanced form of the Augustinian position - one that adds the concept of spiritual immaturity to the prevailing doctrine of disobedience resulting in loss of fellowship with God. It is Hicks that takes it too far.
ReplyDeleteIt also stands to reason that God had some ultimate purpose for Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the snake. Why provide such an environment for Adam and Eve if not to provide a means (through redemption by Jesus' blood) to grow into a fuller spiritual maturity? Otherwise he could have left them in their perfect, innocent state, without opportunity to disobey.
OK, I'm going to try a different approach than my usual type of comment. One that asks for more details regarding the specifics of your blog article (basic information, but beyond what is already in your article). Kind of like an interviewer who asks very basic questions (questions which, in this case, may seem like test questions, I suppose).
ReplyDelete-Who was Irenaeus?
-Who was John Hick?
-Who is Dr. Russ Murray? ; )
-Would you say that immaturity is necessarily equivalent to imperfection? Alternatively, would you say that lack of experience is necessarily equivalent to imperfection?
-Can one be totally lacking in experience and yet sinless? If so, could sinlessness be equated to perfection?....At least moral perfection?
-Would you say there are heresies in Irenaeus' Against Heresies?
-Do you see any correlation between Darwinian Evolution and the natural moral development of mankind as believed by Irenaeus, Hick or Tennant? Additionally, do you see any similarity between these and the belief of Mormons that a "good Mormon" can one day become a god?
The photos you always provide definitely do add interest and appeal to your blog articles.
Your "night image" photo is begging for a Photoshop revision (not because its a bad photo, not at all, but because there are some cool things that could be done with it), but my copy of Photoshop was lost/deleted, and I only have a very old version on my other (extremely old and unbelievably slow) computer (which I should still take advantage of, but because it is so very slow and so old, I have been putting it off).
Your new profile photo is very appropriate and a good one. Though not exactly the same pose, it nevertheless immediately brings to mind Rodin's sculpture of "The Thinker."
New Advent
ReplyDelete'Bishop of Lyons, and Father of the Church.
Information as to his life is scarce, and in some measure inexact. He was born in Proconsular Asia, or at least in some province bordering thereon, in the first half of the second century; the exact date is controverted, between the years 115 and 125, according to some, or, according to others, between 130 and 142. It is certain that, while still very young, Irenaeus had seen and heard the holy Bishop Polycarp (d. 155) at Smyrna. During the persecution of Marcus Aurelius, Irenaeus was a priest of the Church of Lyons. The clergy of that city, many of whom were suffering imprisonment for the Faith, sent him (177 or 178) to Rome with a letter to Pope Eleutherius concerning Montanism, and on that occasion bore emphatic testimony to his merits. Returning to Gaul, Irenaeus succeeded the martyr Saint Pothinus as Bishop of Lyons. During the religious peace which followed the persecution of Marcus Aurelius, the new bishop divided his activities between the duties of a pastor and of a missionary (as to which we have but brief data, late and not very certain) and his writings, almost all of which were directed against Gnosticism, the heresy then spreading in Gaul and elsewhere. In 190 or 191 he interceded with Pope Victor to lift the sentence of excommunication laid by that pontiff upon the Christian communities of Asia Minor which persevered in the practice of the Quartodecimans in regard to the celebration of Easter. Nothing is known of the date of his death, which must have occurred at the end of the second or the beginning of the third century. In spite of some isolated and later testimony to that effect, it is not very probable that he ended his career with martyrdom. His feast is celebrated on 28 June in the Latin Church, and on 23 August in the Greek.'
The late John Hick was an exemplar I used for my PhD and is known for writing the Soul-Making Theodicy, or a Soul-Building Theodicy a liberal theistic approach.
Adam and Eve did lack experience and I reason it did play a part in their falling into sin.
I am not an expert on Irenaeus per say. Heresy would be a strong word. Having looked at him also with my MTS at TWU/CBS I would state he is orthodox basically.
'Do you see any correlation between Darwinian Evolution and the natural moral development of mankind as believed by Irenaeus, Hick or Tennant?'
I would drop Irenaeus from that group. The LDS would be a different consideration although a good point.
Thank you sir on the photos.
Take your best shot at the night image.;)
Cheers.
'chucky said...
ReplyDeleteBing translator translates "Cuidate" to: "Take care."'
Funny.
'chucky said...
ReplyDeleteIt sounds to me like Irenaeus' position is really just a nuanced form of the Augustinian position - one that adds the concept of spiritual immaturity to the prevailing doctrine of disobedience resulting in loss of fellowship with God. It is Hicks that takes it too far.'
Reasonable.
'It also stands to reason that God had some ultimate purpose for Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the snake. Why provide such an environment for Adam and Eve if not to provide a means (through redemption by Jesus' blood) to grow into a fuller spiritual maturity? Otherwise he could have left them in their perfect, innocent state, without opportunity to disobey.'
Also reasonable.
Good day, sir.
True, but always a student more than a teacher.
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ReplyDeleteIn such cases surgeries and metabolism related pills should be considered, the latter with medical supervision of course.
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ReplyDeleteI wonder if you could address either now, or in future blog articles (you may have addressed some or all of these in past blog articles) the following questions, which many Christians (at least in the U.S.) are either in error about, or ignorant about:
ReplyDelete-What is the filling of the Holy Spirit?
-What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit? How and when does this occur?
-What is the anointing, or, what does it mean to be anointed?
Thank you a lot for sharing this with all of us you actually realize what you are speaking approximately!
ReplyDelete'-What is the filling of the Holy Spirit?
ReplyDelete-What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit? How and when does this occur?
-What is the anointing, or, what does it mean to be anointed?'
Indwelling by the Holy Spirit takes place as one is born again/regenerated (John 3). Being filled with the Holy Spirit can be seen with Stephen in Acts 6 and 7, for example, the NASB in verse 6 describes him as 'a man of faith and the Holy Spirit'. It is a person under special guidance, illumination, of the Holy Spirit.
Erickson notes that Baptism of the Spirit if not equivalent to conversion is simultaneous to it. Erickson (1994: 880). Where it was different in Acts he states was because of the transitional nature of the New Testament era. Erickson (1994: 880).
J Van Engen in Evangelical Dictionary of Theology page 51-52, 1996 explains that anoint, anointing was, in the ancient Near East used on persons for applying with oil for medicinal and cosmetic purposes. (51). Oil could be used to anoint guests or venerate persons. (51). This was used throughout the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible for kings and priests of Levi, for example. (51). In the New Testament the Messiah, Christ was the anointed one. (51).
There is the reference in James 5: 14 listed as an example of an anointing for the sick after the resurrection. (52).
I would think that any type of modern hyper-charismatic theology that goes beyond these Biblical concepts very much risks being aberrant to heretical.
Cheers, Jeff.
'Anonymous Anonymous said...
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