Vienna via email
December 24, 2011
Hell
John Hick strongly disagrees with the Augustinian tradition of an everlasting hell.[1] Within this approach, the idea that significantly free persons reject God and do not repent and follow the creator,[2] leads to a conclusion that God will issue post-mortem punishment of these people.[3] Hick reasons such a view is a product of religious imagination.[4] He writes that the everlasting hell idea has served the Christian Church well throughout history because it demonstrated the cosmic drama that separates humankind from God and Christ.[5] Hick, however, sees the fatal flaws within the view of everlasting hell as necessarily leading those who study theodicy in the modern era to reject such a doctrine.[6] He notes since everlasting punishment would not assist in soul-making that it would be unconstructive, constituting the largest part of the problem of evil.[7] Since the universe would forever contain the evil of rebellious persons, God’s creation would permanently be spoiled and ultimately a failure.[8] Clark Pinnock (1992) describes a conditional immortality view within the Four Views on Hell text by William V. Crockett.[9] Pinnock explains that reconciliation and redemption would be questionable within heaven if evil existed in hell forever.[10] Surely God would have to abolish all evil in his new creation postulates Pinnock.[11] The subject of everlasting punishment is not central,[12] and therefore as seen within this thesis is not reviewed within the theodicy work of Augustine, Plantinga, or Feinberg. Everlasting hell was connected by Hick to Augustinian and Reformed thought,[13] but arguments for or against everlasting hell are not directly related to free will or sovereignty theodicy.[14]
December 24, 2011
In contrast
I was wisely advised by my adviser not to go deeply into the subject in my PhD thesis as it would be too controversial and dangerous in the secular setting of UK/European academia. I have however discussed this subject in other posts on both blogs.
In the annihilation article on satire and theology I presented an argument against the annihilation of unregenerate post-mortem persons. This is not exhaustive and is an argument, not the argument. I have used Erickson as a source to support my premises and conclusion.
God is perfectly holy.
Erickson writes that God is totally separate from his creation. Erickson (1994: 284).
Erickson lists Exodus 15: 11, 1 Samuel 2: 2 and Isaiah 57: 15.
God is absolutely pure and good; God is not evil. Erickson (1994: 285).
Erickson lists Job 34: 12, Habakkuk 1: 13 and James 1: 13
Human beings are sinful. Due to the fall.
Jeremiah 17: 9, Romans Chapter 1-3, Romans 3: 23, Romans 6: 23.
Sin must be atoned.
God is the administrator of justice and cannot justly simply forgive sins. Erickson (1994: 816). God is equally the God of love and justice. Justice is therefore not ignored for the sake of love, as a holy God must be just.
Christ as infinite God outlasted finite sin in the atonement.
As God, Christ’s death has infinite worth. Erickson (1994: 804). As God he can atone for all finite human sin.
Human beings are sinful. Due to the fall.
Jeremiah 17: 9, Romans Chapter 1-3, Romans 3: 23, Romans 6: 23.
Sin must be atoned.
God is the administrator of justice and cannot justly simply forgive sins. Erickson (1994: 816). God is equally the God of love and justice. Justice is therefore not ignored for the sake of love, as a holy God must be just.
Christ as infinite God outlasted finite sin in the atonement.
As God, Christ’s death has infinite worth. Erickson (1994: 804). As God he can atone for all finite human sin.
Christ as a perfect man was sacrificed for imperfect persons in the atonement.
As a human, Christ could redeem other humans. Erickson (1994: 804). Christ redeemed all of human nature through the atonement. Erickson (1994: 804).
Therefore:
Those outside of Christ cannot justly be annihilated as their sins are never atoned.
Further, Biblically, all persons exist port-mortem (Revelation, Chapter 20). Unfortunately, it could be reasoned that everlasting punishment exists as finite unregenerate persons continue to attempt to, in a sense, atone for their sins in hell, but can never fully cover their sins without Christ. Therefore they cannot justly be annihilated. Earthly sins are not covered, and post-mortem sins (rejecting God and related) in disembodied and resurrection states also remain uncovered.
BROWNING, W.R.F. (1997) Oxford Dictionary of the Bible, Oxford, Oxford University Press.
BROWNING, W.R.F. (1997) Oxford Dictionary of the Bible, Oxford, Oxford University Press.
CROCKET, WILLIAM (1992) Four Views On Hell, William Crocket (ed.),Grand Rapids, Zondervan Publishing House.
ERICKSON, MILLARD (1994) Christian Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.
HICK, JOHN (1970) Evil and The God of Love, London, The Fontana Library.
[1] Hick (1970: 284).
[2] Hick (1970: 284).
[3] Hick (1970: 284).
[4] Hick (1970: 284).
[5] Hick (1970: 284).
[6] Hick (1970: 284-285).
[7] Hick (1970: 377). It can be deduced that everlasting hell is a realm that is not an aspect of God’s creation intended for human development. It would not have to be free from the problem of evil. Our present universe would be restored through Christ and the problem of evil ended. Any everlasting hell would not constitute, in our context, the largest aspect of the problem of evil.
[8] Hick (1970: 378).
[9] Pinnock in Crockett (1992: 154).
[10] Pinnock in Crockett (1992: 154).
[11] Pinnock in Crockett (1992: 154). Browning suggests everlasting hell concepts such as Hades may relate to the Christian, New Testament use of ancient myths that consisted of the ‘decent of deities to the underworld,’ such as Orpheus, Eurydice and Persephone. Christ may be understood to have descended here after his death (First Peter 3: 19). Browning (1997: 168).
[12] It is a related issue to the study of theodicy.
[13] Hick (1970: 284).
[14] Hick (1970: 284).
Vancouver (Google Images)
Autumn, USA (Google Images)
Glad to see you working out the argument.
ReplyDeleteThe thing that catches my eye is "Augustinian tradition". After reading City of God and Confessions, my impression is that Augustine would have been highly offended to hear the term "Augustinian tradition" tossed about. Augustine was certainly an apologist for the church, but I think he was quite clear in both denying himself to be an innovator and refuting those he did consider innovators. At the other extreme, the Papists argue that he was faithful to the Papal Cult first and Christ second, which I suspect goes a bit too far.
Do you think the quasi-universalists will continue making headway?
Thank you, Saint Looney, first of all I am amused by Blogger's title for the post...
ReplyDeletehttp://thekingpin68.blogspot.com/2011/12/vienna-google-images-december-24-2011.html
Originally I had posted (Draft) the Vienna image earlier in the month and for whatever reason it stuck with the title. More Blogger weirdness.
'Glad to see you working out the argument.'
The topic/subject is a spiritual one which does roughly relate to the season although negatively, but I did receive a comment quickly!
'Do you think the quasi-universalists will continue making headway?'
Probably. It goes with the times.
Merry Christmas, once again.
It's very interesting to read!
ReplyDeleteMerry Christmas you!
Thank you, Mak S, blessings to you in Russia this Christmas. Been good to blog with you recently.
ReplyDeleteDoc Russ,
ReplyDeleteHere is something to wrestle with. The argument is not really against everlasting hell, but everlasting punishment. Hell is basically a translation of Hades or Sheol, so means "grave". Recently Christopher Hitchens died. I think Hitchens would accept in his atheism view the term "everlasting hell" as everlasting grave. In other words, when you die, you are dead forever.
We have strong arguments about not the grave, but souls beyond death. As Christians we believe in a resurrection to life in Heaven with God. Most christians believe the opposite is this everlasting punishment and it includes physical-type torment and suffering. But here we have the argument that on death, those not resurrected through Christ are simply sent back to the grave, to nothingness.
But it seems more is called for than that for perfect justice. If this argument is true, then Hitchens' belief is basically satisfied. He believed in everlasting death upon death and he got it.
What then do we say to anyone who lives a reprobate life, wine, women and song, steal and cheat, do as they please, etc. "You better behave or you will die and be...dead, knowing nothing, feeling nothing."
I think there are many who would be fine with such a fate. I'm not so sure that is the fate they deserve, though. It may not be Heaven, but it is a get out of jail free card.
Wondered about your thoughts.
Larry
Cheers, Larry.
ReplyDeleteFrom my 'Deathly Word Study-Dr. RNM post'
Deathly
'A few years ago I looked through Strong's Concordance in regard to 'Death' to see the connection with 'Hell'.
Hell is at times referred to within Christianity as eternal death or the term more accurately philosophically would be everlasting death. Eternal means to have no beginning and no end, everlasting means to have a beginning and no end.
Interestingly in New Testament Greek, according to Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the same Greek word can be defined in English as either eternal or everlasting. The Greek word aíwvios (aionios) is explained as meaning perpetual, used of past time or past and future as well, eternal, for ever, and everlasting. Strong (1986: 8). Strong provides only one word for eternal or everlasting from the New Testament.
From both the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament and New Testament looking at Strong’s and the meaning of the words for ‘Death’ in individual contexts it seems to basically and primarily mean termination of the natural human body. But this does not mean that the Bible, especially the New Testament does not teach an everlasting hell.
Browning reasons that Biblically ‘Death' in the Bible is presumed when all sign of life have disappeared; it is the end of natural life’. Browning (1997: 94). P.H. Davids explains theologically death is a result of being cut off from God and then death causes a separation from God which is highlighted in Biblical places such as Romans 5 in regard to Adam. Davids (1996: 300). The existence of the spirit is assumed after death within a Biblical Christian world-view. Jesus gave up his spirit in John 19: 30 and Paul discusses the possibility of being with Christ and God in spirit in Philippians 1. Death is therefore not only a result of scientific realities but is also a result of sin (Genesis 3, Romans 1-6). Erickson points out that from a Christian perspective death is not simply a transition from existence to non-existence, it is a transition from one mode of existence to another. Erickson (1996: 1169).
The Scripture in the original Biblical languages does happen to technically list ‘Death’ primarily as a termination of physical life. But there is an acceptance of concepts of the existence of the spirit and judgment after death (Hebrews 9: 27). There is a concept of Hades for example in Luke 16. It may very well be a parable. Did the dead rich man have a body in Hades? Was he in flames? Would water from the tip of the finger of Lazarus cool off his tongue somewhat from the agony? From scholarship it probably is a parable and not plain literal. Does it mean, however, Hades is not a place at all? Not necessarily so. The parable could be describing a spiritual realm in figurative literal terms.
As well, with Revelation Chapter 20, Hades is thrown in the lake of fire. The lake of fire appears a figurative literal location for resurrected unbelievers outside of Christ. Verse 15 states that anyone’s name not found in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. So, anyone not in Christ ends up in this realm.
Literal flames? Not likely, due to the figurative type of language used although possible I suppose if persons have resurrected bodies. Spiritual separation from God, yes. So this could be considered a type of everlasting death of sorts.
In conclusion, I reason that even with the above linguistic evidence, everlasting hell (everlasting death of sorts) is still a major New Testament concept.'
Merry Christmas!
ReplyDeleteMerry Christmas! To you and family in California.
ReplyDeleteDr. Russell,
ReplyDeleteI wish you a Merry Christmas, full of light and blessings in your life and your family. a hug
Dr. Russel,
Desejo-te um Feliz Natal, cheio de benção para ti e tua família.Um abraço
Ana, thank you very much.
ReplyDeleteMerry Christmas and blessings to you and family in Brasil.
a very interesting read indeed. Have yourself a merry little Christmas
ReplyDeleteAnd you as well, in Oregon, my friend.
ReplyDeleteMerry Christmas.
I do not support annihilation, but for balance, once again I should point out I have in comments previously stated with some additions for this Christmas Day...
My argument now altered with a conclusion supporting annihilation:
God is perfectly holy.
Erickson writes that God is totally separate from his creation. Erickson (1994: 284).
Erickson lists Exodus 15: 11, 1 Samuel 2: 2 and Isaiah 57: 15.
God is absolutely pure and good; God is not evil. Erickson (1994: 285).
Erickson lists Job 34: 12, Habakkuk 1: 13 and James 1: 13
Human beings are sinful.
Jeremiah 17: 9, Romans Chapter 1-3, Romans 3: 23, Romans 6: 23.
Sin must be atoned.
God is the administrator of justice and cannot justly simply forgive sins. Erickson (1994: 816). God is equally the God of love and justice. Justice is therefore not ignored for the sake of love, as a holy God must be just.
Christ as infinite God outlasted finite sin in the atonement.
As God, Christ’s death has infinite worth. Erickson (1994: 804). As God he can atone for all finite human sin.
Christ as a perfect man was sacrificed for imperfect persons in the atonement.
As a human, Christ could redeem other humans. Erickson (1994: 804). Christ redeemed all of human nature through the atonement. Erickson (1994: 804).
Conclusion
Christ's atoning work must be unlimited/universal covering all human sin, in order that any unregenerate person (those not elected, Ephesians 1, Romans 8, and born again, John 3) can justly be annihilated. However, such a covering is not clearly defined for the unregenerate in Scripture in order to be theologically known as solid doctrine.
Further
Based on the above argument, I do not reason any amount of finite human penalty can fully cover sin which would negate against a temporary hell concept that pays for all sin and then would allow for a just annihilation.
Obrigada pela passagem em meu blog. Gostei do comentário. Não deixe de visitar mais vezes e deixar um comentário.
ReplyDeleteA fotos de suas postagens são bonitas.
abraços.
'Thank you for passing on my blog. I liked this comment. Be sure to visit more often and leave a comment.
ReplyDeleteThe photos of your posts are beautiful.
hugs.'
And thank you.
Merry Christmas.
Russ:)
follow me
ReplyDeleteReturned, cheers.
ReplyDeleteJohn Hick doesn't believe in an everlasting Hell, I wonder if his student Dr. Lane Craig would disagree?
ReplyDelete-Curious Cat-
A great picture of Vancouver, very clear, and a very nice day, Aaaaah no rain!
ReplyDelete-Weather or Not-
'Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteJohn Hick doesn't believe in an everlasting Hell, I wonder if his student Dr. Lane Craig would disagree?
-Curious Cat-'
Good point as Craig is an evangelical, orthodox Christian philosopher.
'Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteA great picture of Vancouver, very clear, and a very nice day, Aaaaah no rain!
-Weather or Not-'
I wish there were more sunny days...
I do not mind the temperatures.
Doc Russ,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your well considered response.
Larry
Very kind of you, Larry, thank you.
ReplyDeleteI have a new post here:
s&t
Hi Russ,
ReplyDeleteI love the photos!!!!
By the way, happy new year!!
Take care ;)
Thank you very much, Carmen.
ReplyDeleteHappy New Year and Blessings in 2012.
Temperature comparison...
Madrid 4 C
Maple Ridge 6 C
I am surprised...
Madrid can be a hell of a hot place but it can also get pretty chilly over there ;) The town where I live (Cáceres) has milder winter weather :) although summer weather is NOT that mild over here :( Springtime and autumn are veeeeery nice, though :P
ReplyDelete'Madrid can be a hell of a hot place but it can also get pretty chilly over there ;) The town where I live (Cáceres) has milder winter weather :) although summer weather is NOT that mild over here :( Springtime and autumn are veeeeery nice, though :P'
ReplyDeleteI see from a Spain map, Cáceres is a fair ways from Madrid. I assumed from Statcounter that you lived at or near Madrid. But I was incorrect.:) Yes your summers will on average be much warmer than here in Greater Vancouver as we rarely break 100 F. Although interestingly the warmest temperatures I have been in that I can remember Carmen, recently, with humidity have been here in 2009 at 43 C and Central/South Florida in 2007 also at 43 C with humidity and so 109.4 degrees F. That temperature is very rare for this area but not that rare for Florida which I have been to twice and like, and I would guess not rare for Spain, which I would to see once I am working. Like I stated before I would like to see the historical sites, football, and of course friendly people.;)
Madrid can be as hot as Florida, absolutely. But 43C is already quite hot... even for Spain. The max. I've seen is 49C and that was downtown and a hell of a hot summer!
ReplyDeleteI'm sure you'll like Madrid. I find it pleasant to spend a day sightseeing in Madrid. It's a beautiful city, but I prefer to live in a smaller city or town, just like mine :)
Good luck with your job hunt!!
Carmen, all the best with your thesis.:)
ReplyDeleteIts hard to believe that Madrid was actually colder than a town in Canada at this time of year! This must be a rare moment in the world's weather.
ReplyDelete-Whether or Not-
Thanks for your insight and thoughts about Hell Dr. Murray, it seems that you believe that some of the language used to describe Hell is figurative and not literal, "Literal flames? Not likely, due to the figurative type of language used..."
ReplyDelete-Everlasting Curiousity-
'Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteIts hard to believe that Madrid was actually colder than a town in Canada at this time of year! This must be a rare moment in the world's weather.
-Whether or Not-'
True.
Their summers are generally warmer and overall their days feature more sun. Plus Real Madrid and Atletico Madrid are better clubs than the Vancouver Whitecaps.
'Thanks for your insight and thoughts about Hell Dr. Murray, it seems that you believe that some of the language used to describe Hell is figurative and not literal, "Literal flames? Not likely, due to the figurative type of language used..."
ReplyDelete-Everlasting Curiousity-'
Mounce notes scholarly opinion that the lake of fire symbolizes and signifies not annihilation but a society and life in opposition to God.
I doubt this is literal flames, but I am not dogmatic that it is not. I reason the unregenerate are resurrected and so could face some sort of flames as punishment, but I think something more spiritually sophisticated will be in order.
MOUNCE, ROBERT H. (1990) The Book of Revelation, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.