Thursday, December 12, 2013

Genesis (PhD Edit)

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A former Pastor of mine asked me if I had studied Genesis much. I do not claim to be a scholar of the Hebrew Bible and Old Testament, but was required to do some study on Genesis for my PhD thesis. 

This was quite educational although admittedly limited as the focus was theodicy and the problem of evil related, for which I do have expertise. 

I still very much hold to that neither Genesis nor any part of Scripture is myth, but as with Revelation, for example, was impressed upon, even by evangelical, conservative writers that the type of language used is crucial. 

Note, as with all my PhD writing, but in particular work of a controversial nature such as Genesis, I, as a moderate conservative of the Reformed tradition was forced to if I wished to pass, acknowledge many of the academic traditions of liberal Christianity.  

To not do so would be to be labelled an uneducated fundamentalist. This in my case is obviously false. An issue I came across with my first appointment at Manchester. I eventually earned my degrees at Wales. 

Technical acknowledgment and stating something is plausible and possible does not mean I hold to that view. 

Cheers, 

Russ 

Contrary to the Reformed theological position taken in my PhD thesis, many secular and Biblical scholars from mainline denominations, view the Biblical story of the fall as likely fiction. Many liberal Christian apologists do not believe in a literal fall of humanity. Adam and Eve have been relegated to the realm of mythology. 

Terence E. Fretheim (1994) of Luther Northwestern Theological Seminary, is not dogmatic[1] but appears to favour the idea that the fall is metaphorical in Genesis 3.[2]  He does not think a traditional, conservative view of a single human fall into sin is supported by the Genesis text[3] which is filled with metaphorical, symbolic language.[4]  He does, however, believe the Genesis text is providing a general, but not specifically literal, idea of how sin and evil became part of the cosmos.[5]  Fretheim raises a very important point in whether or not a scholar looks at the fall story in Genesis as fiction, or non-fiction, the metaphorical and symbolic use of words and concepts used within should not be ignored.[6]  

William Sanford La Sor, David Allan Hubbard, and Fredric William Bush (1987) from what I deduced was a moderate conservative, evangelical position, reason the author of Genesis is writing as an artist and storyteller who uses literary device.[7]  They point out it is imperative to distinguish which literary device is being used within the text of Genesis.[8]  

I would deduce that since Genesis 3 describes this event, it is plausible a literal Adam and Eve were initially morally perfect without sin and eventually fell in corruption.  It is also possible that the somewhat metaphorical language of Genesis[9] allows for the Adam and Eve story to be describing a fall from God’s plan for humanity in general, and not specifically two initial persons.[10] Not my view, but possible in the context of British, secular academia within a broad concept of cultural Christianity. 

I accept that when in Genesis 1:26, God is said to have created humanity in his image and likeness,[11] that this was part of their original nature.[12]   H.L. Ellison (1986) explains that in the beginning human beings were made in God’s image and likeness[13] in order that they could have dominion over animal creation and have communion with God.[14]   If a literal explanation of Genesis 1:26 is accepted[15] then it seems plausible that both the image and likeness of God were given to humanity from the start, and I lean towards this understanding.[16]  

Since scholars such as Fretheim, La Sor, Hubbard, and Bush explain that Genesis is written with the use of metaphorical language in parts, an interpretation such as John Hick’s with Soul making and building, that is not literal in regard to the image and likeness of God, is an intellectual possibility.[17]   

But not my Reformed position.   

Erickson thinks that Irenaeus views the image of God as being human resemblance to the creator with reason and will,[18] and the likeness of God was the moral qualities of their maker.[19]  This is a reasonable understanding of Irenaeus’ view,[20] but even if this separation between image and likeness is accepted, it is plausible that the image and likeness occur in persons simultaneously.[21]  I would therefore theorize that original human spiritual immaturity was not due to humanity lacking a likeness to God.[22]  Rather, original people could have been created morally perfect within what Hick calls an Augustinian model.[23]  I subscribe to a Reformed, Calvinistic sovereignty model, and I have explained throughout my PhD thesis that Augustinian and Calvinistic models and traditions are similar but not identical.  These persons lacked the experience to properly understand and comprehend the results of disobeying God and the sort of life that would occur because of that rebellion.  The first human beings may have had little understanding of the idea that their very nature would change if they disobeyed God.  Within an Augustinian or Calvinistic perspective it seems plausible humanity’s likeness to God was insufficient after, but not before, the fall as they were no longer in perfect moral communion with their God.[24] 

Victor P. Hamilton in Handbook on the Pentateuch  notes three possible reasons for the writer of Genesis using these terms together: (1) The terms image and likeness may be interchangeable, in other words synonyms for each other. (2) The word likeness may modify the word image.  This is done to avoid the idea that man is an exact copy of God. (3) The term likeness amplifies the term image as human beings are not simply representative of God, but representational.  Hamilton (1988: 26-27). 

AUGUSTINE (388-395)(1964) On Free Choice of the Will, Translated by Anna S.Benjamin and L.H. Hackstaff, Upper Saddle River, N.J., Prentice Hall.           

AUGUSTINE (398-399)(1992) Confessions, Translated by Henry Chadwick, Oxford, Oxford University Press. 

AUGUSTINE (400-416)(1987)(2004) On the Trinity, Translated by Reverend Arthur West Haddan, in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series One, Volume 3, Denver, The Catholic Encyclopedia.

AUGUSTINE (421)(1998) Enchiridion, Translated by J.F. Shaw,  Denver, The Catholic Encyclopedia.

AUGUSTINE (426)(1958) The City of God, Translated by Gerald G. Walsh, Garden City, New York, Image Books. 

AUGUSTINE (427)(1997) On Christian Doctrine, Translated by D.W. Robertson Jr., Upper Saddle River, N.J., Prentice Hall. 

AUGUSTINE (427b)(1997) On Christian Teaching, Translated by R.P.H. Green, Oxford, Oxford University Press. 

CALVIN, JOHN (1554)(1965) Genesis, Translated by John King, Edinburgh, The Banner of Truth Trust. 

ELLISON, H.L. (1986) ‘Genesis’, in F.F. Bruce (ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Zondervan. 

FRETHEIM, TERENCE E. (1994) ‘Is Genesis 3 a Fall Story?’, in Word and World, Luther Seminary, pp. 144-153. Saint Paul, Luther Seminary. 

HAMILTON, VICTOR P. (1988) Handbook on the Pentateuch, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House. 

LA SOR, WILLIAM SANFORD, DAVID ALLAN HUBBARD, AND FREDERIC WILLIAM BUSH. (1987) Old Testament Survey, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.  


 

[1] Fretheim (1994: 152).

[2] Fretheim (1994: 152).

[3] Fretheim (1994: 152).

[4] Fretheim (1994: 153).

[5] Fretheim (1994: 153).

[6] Fretheim (1994: 153).

[7] La Sor, Hubbard, and Bush (1987: 72).

[8] La Sor, Hubbard, and Bush (1987: 72).

[9] Fretheim (1994: 152).

[10] Fretheim (1994: 153).

[11] Hamilton (1982: 26-27).

[12] Hamilton (1982: 26-27).

[13] Ellison (1986: 115).  Hamilton (1982: 26-27).

[14] Ellison (1986: 115). 

[15] Hamilton (1982: 26-27).

[16] Ellison (1986: 115).  Hamilton (1982: 26-27).

[17] Fretheim (1994: 153).  La Sor, Hubbard, and Bush (1987: 72).

[18] Erickson (1994: 500-501).

[19] Erickson (1994: 500-501).

[20] Erickson (1994: 500-501). 

[21] Erickson (1994: 500-501).

[22] Hamilton (1982: 26-27).  Ellison (1986: 115). 

[23] Hick (1970: 121-131).

[24] Augustine (388-395)(1964: 3).  Augustine (421)(1998: Chapter 13:  8).  Calvin (1539)(1998: Book II, Chapter 2, 7).  Calvin (1543)(1996: 69).  


71 comments:

  1. Comment from Facebook:

    Even in light of some degree of literal assumption, I admit, while I was studying the fall for my PhD, I never found any evidence or argument that was Biblically based or related that made me think that Adam and Eve were not literal in Scripture, as in myth. The story does contain it appears figurative literal language as in the serpent 'on your belly shall you go' NASB. Presumed to be Satan and spirit very doubtful the entity crawls. Perhaps figurative language for being cast in the human realm and related in some sense. But issues like still would not make Genesis 1-3 myth. Still religious history. I did have a Prof. Bible School that speculated that God could have created humans more than once, perhaps explaining different races and therefore he speculated different falls. Also Adam in Romans 5 ties into the Gospel message. With increasing study esp. the PhD, what I was made more aware of and this is probably my ex-pastor's issue, is being very aware of the type of language being used whether poetry or prose. Thanks, Sally.

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  6. I still very much hold to that neither Genesis nor any part of Scripture is myth, but as with Revelation, for example, was impressed upon, even by evangelical, conservative writers that the type of language used is crucial.

    You can't compare Genesis and Revelation. Revelation is a record of a vision which uses symbolic, somewhat cryptic language and is apocalyptic and prophetic literature which uses imagery.

    Genesis, on the other hand, is a historical account. Many of those who attack the record in Genesis also attack other accounts in the Old Testament. Yet Jesus Himself spoke of the miracles, events, and people in the Old Testament as historical truth. Jesus validated the account of the destruction of Sodom, including the death of Lot’s wife (Luke 17:29,32). Jesus confirmed that manna fell from heaven (John 6:31-51). Jesus spoke of Daniel of the Old Testament as a real and genuine prophet (Matthew 24:15). Jesus validated the account of Jonah and the whale (Matthew 12:39). And Jesus in Matthew 19:4-6 speaks of the Genesis account of the creation of Adam and Eve.

    If Genesis cannot be relied upon, then none of the Bible can be relied upon. You can't pick and choose. And if Genesis is myth, then either Jesus was a liar, or was deceived, or else the account of Jesus is faulty, which means you might as well throw out the gospel accounts altogether, and throw away your Bible, or else give it no more importance than Grimm's Fairy Tales, in which case Pastors and seminary Professors would be nothing more than storytellers of fiction at best, and liars at worst; in that case, I would see spending money to go to seminary as a complete waste, and throwing your money away. In addition, you would probably be just as well off going to your public library and checking out a children's book, as reading a Bible. And going to that same library and hearing some old woman reading a book to children would be basically the same as going to some church and hearing a Pastor tell you fairy tales. So if Genesis cannot be relied upon, then give your Bible to your children, along with some crayons, and tell them to use it as a coloring book.

    Such things are no more than attacks on the authority of Scripture. In the seminary classes I sat in on, the seminary professor spent the entire time attacking the miracles of the Bible, and explaining them away with secular explanations. Atheists are more honest than such religious deceivers, who I'm sure have destroyed the faith of many.

    ReplyDelete
  7. 'You can't compare Genesis and Revelation. Revelation is a record of a vision which uses symbolic, somewhat cryptic language and is apocalyptic and prophetic literature which uses imagery.'

    I don't think I totally agree.

    'And Jesus in Matthew 19:4-6 speaks of the Genesis account of the creation of Adam and Eve.'

    Very true, it is religious history. It actually happened, that does not rule out the use of figurative literal language, however.


    'If Genesis cannot be relied upon, then none of the Bible can be relied upon. You can't pick and choose.'

    True, but we should also not force plain literal language where it is not so in context, as with the example I listed.

    Is Satan a literal serpent? Does he crawl on his belly?

    Does Satan crawl around the earth as a spirit in this form to this day as punishment?

    We must be careful, in Christ of overly fundamentalistic approaches, while at the same time staying true to the Bible.

    Thanks, Jeff.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Just having a look at what H.L. Ellison states about the punishment of the 'snake'.

    He states the punishment must not be taken to mean that at one time it had legs. Rather what would have seemed 'natural and beautiful' would now be a 'perpetual reminder of what it had once done'.

    page 117 (1986) The International Bible Commentary

    Seems to me this is a somewhat figurative way of describing the actual, literal history of Satan.

    One could not accurately and fairly take this as meaning the entire story and book was myth, but needless to state, some liberals and critics would wrongly attempt to do so. That does not excuse an overly aggressive conservative position, in my view, but a balanced one is needed.

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  11. I do not like the 'easy' tag at all...

    Sorry. It is going to be hard work to make that online.

    Reminds me of my 12 am phone call from Mr. Matt this morning. He noted that too much of the Church uses marketing techniques that make the faith/philosophy and life sound easier than it is.

    He mentioned Joni Eareckson Tada and how he read/heard not sure which that when the accident happened Christians just were not willing to deal with the suffering and she was preached to with Bible verses and then abandoned by church leaders.

    I agree with Matt, it reminds me of most of the internet marketers.

    Emphasis on the positive at the expense of the negative, in regard to and examining Scripture and life.

    Not in much agreement with the liberal theology of the British Universities I attended, but I am thankful to them and the Christian institutions I attended that emphasized critical balanced thinking by which I pray the Holy Spirit will guide.

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  15. I admit I am in process in regard to the Old Testament, not my background as much at the New Testament, and my theses work in theology and philosophy of religion.

    All the more reason to study honest scholarship.

    From Hamilton and the Handbook on the Pentateuch which is from my CBC days:

    The difficulty raised with the creation of light in day 1 and for example the creation in day 4 of luminaries is noted.

    'It is not difficult to see that the first six days fall into two groups of three. Each day in the second column is an expression of its counterpart in the left hand column.

    Day 1 light-Day 4 luminaries (sun, moon, stars)

    Day 2 heavens-Day 5 fish, birds

    Day 3 earth, vegetation-Day 6 land, animals, man

    Day 7 Sabbath'

    p. 19

    Calls it a horizontal literary arrangement on page 19.

    I have come across scholarship that seems to indicate that day in Hebrew, 'yom' in context means a literal solar day. Therefore, it could be the case here even while in a figurative literal context at points.

    Certainly not mythology.

    He states on page 12 that he prefers to leave the creation-evolution debate to scientists rather than to the Biblical scholar.

    But I reason he certainly believes God created based on the Scriptural account.

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  17. -In context from Genesis itself a religious history is provided.

    -The Hebrew Bible accepts the religious historicity of Adam, Eve, and the serpent, the evil one.

    -The New Testament accepts Adam and Eve as literal (Romans 5). Satan is of course accepted throughout.

    I do not think it reasonable for a liberal/critic to determine the Genesis story is myth if it is not plain literal. Anymore than to dismiss the new heaven and new earth as myth because figurative literal language is used in Revelation.

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    'Obviously' I have massive browser compatibility issues with all these new posts.

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  23. Is Satan a literal serpent? Does he crawl on his belly?

    I believe, in Genesis 3:1 for example, that it was indeed a literal serpent. Matthew Henry's Commentary, for example, says, "It was the devil in the likeness of a serpent." The Bible says that Satan can come as an angel of light. The Old Testament has accounts of angels (or in some cases, possibly Christophanies) coming in the form of men, even being able to eat and drink. So when it says "serpent," I think it meant serpent. It was possibly possessed, as men in the New Testament have been possessed by demons, and as pigs were possessed when Jesus cast out the serpents. And if there is such thing as an "overly fundamentalistic approach," then there is also such thing as an overly-intellectual approach, when you rely too much on so-called 'scholars' as well as an education which has been fraught with professors who have exhibited far more doubt than faith.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Just having a look at what H.L. Ellison states about the punishment of the 'snake'.

    He states the punishment must not be taken to mean that at one time it had legs. Rather what would have seemed 'natural and beautiful' would now be a 'perpetual reminder of what it had once done'.


    Yet there are legless lizards, as well as global myths of dragons, which could possibly have their origins in legged serpents. H.L. Ellison sounds to me like an example of someone with very weak, or even non-existent faith. Not someone whom I would respect, I don't care how 'intellectual' he may be.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Jeff, I anticipated your response.

    Waiting for it...;)

    Indeed, Satan could have literally been in the form of a snake, or possessed one.

    No disagreement. Could be.

    But that would not explain the punishment which would still have to be figurative literal, unless one believes Satan still possesses the body of the snake, or takes the body of the snake and yet serves God and self as a fallen angelic being.

    Now if raising that problem is being overly-intellectual, I plead guilty...

    We have been over the scholar issue before, and neither one of us is in a position to judge the faith of these scholars.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Meaning, if a scholar confesses Christ and yet does not agree to your position, or mine, we should be cautious in judging faith.

    ReplyDelete
  27. 'H.L. Ellison sounds to me like an example of someone with very weak, or even non-existent faith. Not someone whom I would respect, I don't care how 'intellectual' he may be.'

    I will not make such a claim...

    Not with La Sor and Hamilton and other scholars, unless I read or hear something that tells me that they do not believe.

    Here is a web list of what Ellison wrote:

    Library

    If you like...
    H. L. Ellison (1903–1983)

    Author of Exodus (Daily Study Bible Series)

    Exodus (Daily Study Bible Series) 124 copies
    Men Spake from God: Studies in the Hebrew Prophets (Mount Radford… 54 copies
    The Message of the Old Testament 39 copies
    Prophets of Israel from Ahijah to Hosea 29 copies
    From Tragedy to Triumph: The Message of the Book of Job 23 copies
    From Babylon to Bethlehem 19 copies, 1 review
    Ezekiel (The Man and His Message) 15 copies
    Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 and 2 Samuel (Scripture Union Bible study books) 12 copies
    The mystery of Israel: An exposition of Romans 9-11 (Paperback… 12 copies, 1 review
    Fathers of the covenant: Studies in Genesis and Exodus 12 copies
    The Psalms (Scripture Union Bible study books) 12 copies
    The household Church (Paternoster pocket book ; no. 4) 7 copies
    Mystery of Israel 6 copies
    1 and 2 Peter,: 1, 2 and 3 John, Jude, Revelation (Scripture Union Bible… 4 copies
    Understanding a Jew 4 copies
    Bible Study Books 2 Joshua 2 Samuel 3 copies
    A Study of Job: From Tragedy to Triumph 3 copies
    First Epistle of St. Peter - Revelation (A Bible study book) 2 copies
    Men Spake From God: Studies in Hebrew Prophets 2 copies
    The Servant of Jehovah 2 copies
    The Old Testament Prophets; Men Spake From God (a Study Guide; Studies in… 2 copies
    1 Peter - Revelation (Bible Study Books) 1 copy
    Ilmoituksen polttopiste 1 copy
    Jesus and the Pharisees 1 copy
    Guds spår i Gamla testamentets värld 1 copy
    scripture union bible study books-2: joshua-2 samuel 1 copy
    The homeless church 1 copy
    Exposition of Romans 9-11 1 copy
    Roumanian self-taught: By the natural method with the English phonetic… 1 copy
    2 Joshua 2 Samuel 1 copy
    The Centrality of the Messianic Idea for the Old Testament (The Tyndale… 1 copy
    The Christian approach to the Jew 1 copy
    Bible study books: 1 Peter - Revelation 1 copy
    A Study of Job 1 copy
    FROM TRAGEDY TO TRIUMPH. STUDIES IN THE BOOK OF JOB. 1 copy
    Jesus as Man (Understanding Bible teaching) 1 copy

    Cheers, Jeff

    ReplyDelete
  28. But that would not explain the punishment which would still have to be figurative literal, unless one believes Satan still possesses the body of the snake, or takes the body of the snake and yet serves God and self as a fallen angelic being.

    Not at all. As far as Satan, his future destruction is of course mentioned multiple times in Scripture.

    Satan certainly did use a real, literal, physical snake as his instrument for tempting Eve. Satan is the master as posing himself as something else and not tempting someone with his full identity exposed.

    As far as snakes themselves, even Science says that snakes originally had legs:

    How Snakes Lost Their Legs

    ReplyDelete
  29. ...neither one of us is in a position to judge the faith of these scholars.

    I disagree. When someone says something that works to weaken the authority of Scripture, we should be cautious of what they say. The Pharisees were the religious experts in Jesus' day, yet Jesus berated them harshly and many times.

    We should be like the Bereans:
    "Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." (Acts 17:11)

    Just because someone is called a "scholar," I don't put them on a pedestal.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Meaning, if a scholar confesses Christ and yet does not agree to your position, or mine, we should be cautious in judging faith.

    I know many who don't agree with my position who have strong faith. But when they start attacking the Bible, and start spreading doubts about the authority of Scripture, not only their faith, but even their salvation could come into question. I have seen those who have been considered religious "scholars" who I believe were not even Christians at all.

    ReplyDelete
  31. I am not arguing the snakes/legs issue...

    Ellison's point I think was the type of language, not the science.

    'Not at all. As far as Satan, his future destruction is of course mentioned multiple times in Scripture.'

    Agree on Satan being in the lake of fire (Rev. 20).

    No clearly, it is figurative literal language. If it is plain literal, then as punishment today still, the serpent crawls on his belly, otherwise it is figurative literal language. And he shall eat dust, and still would be. (NASB)

    ReplyDelete
  32. 'I know many who don't agree with my position who have strong faith. But when they start attacking the Bible, and start spreading doubts about the authority of Scripture, not only their faith, but even their salvation could come into question. I have seen those who have been considered religious "scholars" who I believe were not even Christians at all.'

    Ellison and Hamilton are not doing that in my view. I saw nothing in what I have read from either that was attacking the Bible. Simply trying to deal with it in context, right or wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  33. No one here is putting scholars on a pedestal, simply analyzing the work.

    'I disagree. When someone says something that works to weaken the authority of Scripture, we should be cautious of what they say. The Pharisees were the religious experts in Jesus' day, yet Jesus berated them harshly and many times.'

    Not weakening the authority in this case. Different interpretation.

    ReplyDelete
  34. '"The oldest snake remains are dated to 112 to 94 million years ago, and this snake is dated to around 90 million years ago," she explained.'

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  38. '- It's now believed that snakes either evolved from a lizard that burrowed on land or swam in the ocean.'

    Today's theory I suppose. Based on Darwinian Evolution.

    I am skeptical...

    Thanks, Jeff

    ReplyDelete
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  40. Henry

    Gen. 3:14-15

    'II. This sentence may be considered as levelled at the devil, who only made use of the serpent as his vehicle in this appearance, but was himself the principal agent. He that spoke through the serpent’s mouth is here struck at through the serpent’s side, and is principally intended in the sentence, which, like the pillar of cloud and fire, has a dark side towards the devil and a bright side towards our first parents and their seed. Great things are contained in these words.

    1. A perpetual reproach is here fastened upon that great enemy both to God and man. Under the cover of the serpent, he is here sentenced to be, (1.) Degraded and accursed of God. It is supposed that the sin which turned angels into devils was pride, which is here justly punished by a great variety of mortifications couched under the mean circumstances of a serpent crawling on his belly and licking the dust. How art thou fallen, O Lucifer! He that would be above God, and would head a rebellion against him, is justly exposed here to contempt and lies to be trodden on; a man’s pride will bring him low, and God will humble those that will not humble themselves. (2.) Detested and abhorred of all mankind. Even those that are really seduced into his interest yet profess a hatred and abhorrence of him; and all that are born of God make it their constant care to keep themselves, that this wicked one touch them not, 1 John 5:18. He is here condemned to a state of war and irreconcilable enmity. (3.) Destroyed and ruined at last by the great Redeemer, signified by the breaking of his head. His subtle politics shall all be baffled, his usurped power shall be entirely crushed, and he shall be for ever a captive to the injured honour of divine sovereignty. By being told of this now he was tormented before the time.'

    From his words here, accepting in agreement the possibility Satan could have appeared as serpent, I see a great possibility that Henry views the punishment as figurative literal. 'Couched' may or may not be a key word he uses as expressing the concept in Chapter in a certain specified way. Perhaps as literary device.

    In regard to the mailbox scam:

    Someone, possibly in Africa, needs to get a life.

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  42. Pondering further...

    A dividing line for me in a contextual evaluation is whether or not there is an attempt as forced by the writer to take the supernatural out of Genesis 1-3.

    'Terence E. Fretheim (1994) of Luther Northwestern Theological Seminary, is not dogmatic[1] but appears to favour the idea that the fall is metaphorical in Genesis 3.[2] He does not think a traditional, conservative view of a single human fall into sin is supported by the Genesis text[3] which is filled with metaphorical, symbolic language.[4] He does, however, believe the Genesis text is providing a general, but not specifically literal, idea of how sin and evil became part of the cosmos.[5]'

    With a view like above, if perhaps the supernatural is taken out for a natural explanation, this is certainly not true to the text. It does become a myth view.

    Viewing the event as featuring a plain literal serpent/snake that is Satan, or Satan appearing speculatively as a man, voice, voice in the head, as plain literally under the literary device of the figurative literal serpent, are both being true at least to the obvious supernatural context of this religious history.

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  43. Imagining that the language used in the curse on Satan is plain literal, that suggests that it should be possible to get together a group of snake hunters, seek out the devil and kill him ourselves. No need to wait for Jesus to take care of him! The main problem is tracking down that old serpent. Probably hiding somewhere that has an excessive amount of evil! Anyone know how to make a type of geiger counter for measuring evil?

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  44. '"The oldest snake remains are dated to 112 to 94 million years ago, and this snake is dated to around 90 million years ago," she explained.'

    Sorry my friend I had to post this from your article. Lol...


    Completely expected, and not surprising at all, since it's a site that promotes evolution.

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  45. Imagining that the language used in the curse on Satan is plain literal, that suggests that it should be possible to get together a group of snake hunters, seek out the devil and kill him ourselves.

    I don't see anywhere in Genesis 3 where it says "Satan is a serpent." Instead, it says, "the serpent." Either Satan came disguised as a serpent, in which case, by all visual and material evidence, it was likely the physical body of a serpent, but more probably, Satan possessed an actual serpent, since people and animals have been possessed by demons in the Bible. This could explain how a snake could talk. In the gospel accounts, when Jesus cast the demons out of the man and they went into the pigs, they were not figurative pigs---neither were they 'figurative literal' pigs---they were literal pigs.

    To say that it was not a literal snake presents a problem, since God cursed the serpent and said he will crawl on his belly from now on. Satan does not crawl on his belly, but snakes do.

    Revelation, in referring to Satan as "that great serpent," could be alluding to Genesis, if Satan possessed a serpent in the garden. Revelation, of course, contains much figurative language, because it is a vision or dream about future events, rather than a historical account.

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  46. 'To say that it was not a literal snake presents a problem, since God cursed the serpent and said he will crawl on his belly from now on. Satan does not crawl on his belly, but snakes do.'

    Ah, therefore it is a figurative literal account as Chuck and I noted.

    Thanks, Jeff.

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  47. 'Revelation, in referring to Satan as "that great serpent," could be alluding to Genesis, if Satan possessed a serpent in the garden. Revelation, of course, contains much figurative language, because it is a vision or dream about future events, rather than a historical account.'

    I reason the figurative language in Revelation still reflects historical religious events.

    The fall of angels for example. Rev. 12.

    Cheers

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  48. 'I reason the figurative language in Revelation still reflects historical religious events.'

    The fall of angels for example. Rev. 12.

    Figurative literal I suppose, in Revelation could also reflect the hypothetical, but I mean it can reflect religious history and does.

    It is also reflected in the coming judgments and lake of fire in Revelation 20. That could be seen as an actual event that will be historical but not described with plain literal language.

    ReplyDelete
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    My sites are not dead 'beat'.

    That TSN contest is a long shot...;)

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  52. It may still be interesting for some readers to have a kind of "hall of fame" blog post with embedded videos of some of your favourite music, so folks get a sampling of the kind of music you like, without being bombarded with it as you say some blogs do.
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  53. Jeff, I also believe that Satan literally possessed and animated a snake, or took on the visage of a snake in the Garden of Eden.
    I also believe he is a spirit which biblical writers figuratively associate with the snake, due to the aforementioned incident. So Satan "crawls on his belly". Figuratively.
    Literal AND Figurative. Figurative literal. Okay?

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  54. I reason certainly Satan could have taken the form of a snake, in some way.

    As God spoke through a donkey (Numbers 22), God may have given this ability to Satan here.

    I also reason due to the fig. lit nature of the account Satan could have appeared (be present) in other forms, speculatively as a man, voice or voice in head.

    My bottom line is that it is religious history.

    Thinking about this driving back from Northview Church this morning, the other punishment accounts could be seen with degrees of fig. lit as well, yet historical.

    All under the curse in humanity, but not all women have children. Not all men toil of the ground.

    Clearly in the religious history here there are at points elements of poetry which even conservative scholars of the OT often point out.

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  55. Russell Norman Murray said...
    'To say that it was not a literal snake presents a problem, since God cursed the serpent and said he will crawl on his belly from now on. Satan does not crawl on his belly, but snakes do.'

    Ah, therefore it is a figurative literal account as Chuck and I noted.


    chucky said...
    Jeff, I also believe that Satan literally possessed and animated a snake, or took on the visage of a snake in the Garden of Eden.
    I also believe he is a spirit which biblical writers figuratively associate with the snake, due to the aforementioned incident. So Satan "crawls on his belly". Figuratively.
    Literal AND Figurative. Figurative literal. Okay?


    Russell Norman Murray said...
    I reason certainly Satan could have taken the form of a snake, in some way.

    As God spoke through a donkey (Numbers 22), God may have given this ability to Satan here.




    OK, I admit I may have harshly and emotionally overreacted. The term "figurative literal" is kind of a contradiction to me, or an oxymoron, so I probably don't completely understand the term. But I have heard so many people attack the Genesis account of Creation, calling it a myth, or Seminary Professors trying to give natural explanations to miraculous events in the Bible, that when I hear the word "figurative," I just tend to have a knee-jerk reaction.

    (cont.)

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  56. (cont.)

    As far as my previous comments, this was VERY much heightened and reinforced by the fact that I have been dealing with a fresh vandalism incident where they broke my mailbox in half again (this is the 3rd time), and when I called the Post Office Customer Service line, they said there was nothing they could do (this is the 2nd time I've called them about this problem; I also filled out a report when they stole my mail years ago, and threw my mail into a retention pond, and I got 2 violation notices from the Sheriff's Dept. for littering, and was ordered by the sheriff's Dept. to crawl under the fence and get my mail, plus pick up all the heavy boxes of roofing tiles that someone had also thrown out there). The other day, I tried to call my local Post Office twice, but it was busy, and the third time I let it ring about 20 times, but they never answered. Plus, I was told to fill out some forms from my mortgage company, which are supposed to help me, but they said once I fax them in and they approve them, I have 3 choices: (1) move out immediately; (2) pay all my past-due mortgage back payments, which comes to $4,606.41, and then continue paying fair market rate, and they will allow me to stay in the house for another year; or (3) stay in my house for 3 more months. The problem is, I have no income and still have not been able to get a job, though I have been applying for multiple jobs generally daily. Last week, I was not able to pay my electric bill, so I wrote to the online college and told them I may have to drop all my classes since I will not have electricity in a few days. But thanks be to God, I went to the electric company, and they accepted a partial payment for now. I am also rationing my food in order to make it last as long as possible, and eating only 1-2 meals a day. So, I've been fearful of having no electricity or water or food, and soon after that, becoming homeless, plus I've been fearful of the mixed neighborhood, because of all the past attempted break-ins, my stolen mail, the bike tire tracks left in my driveway (that by itself would only be annoying, but it just highlights the fact that property boundaries are ignored, and that my house is vulnerable, especially having no fence and being on a street corner with no street lights), the other day when two black teens released their pit bull on me, trying to scare me or maybe hoping their pit bull would bite or attack me...all of this combined caused me to be depressed, worried, and fearful. It's not an excuse for my rash and harsh comments previously, but it has caused me to be on edge lately. So I apologize for that. Thankfully, the other day when I was practically in tears out of fear and worry, and praying to God for help, a friend that I hadn't seen in weeks or months came by, telling me he was driving by the road that would take him in my direction, and God told him to visit me, and he greatly encouraged me, and told me not to worry, but to trust God. He also took me to dinner, when I had eaten only 2 eggs all day, so that was a blessing. He also invited me to church, which I hadn't been to in a while, so I went, and that was a blessing. He also hired me to tear up linoleum from the floor of his house, and paid me for it, so that was a blessing. I used some of the money he gave me to buy gas for my car, since my tank was almost on empty. So God has been taking care of me day-by-day, moment-by-moment. He has also been guiding me to places in Scripture where it says do not worry. The other day, I was even reading a verse that says, "Endure hardships."

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  57. 'I just tend to have a knee-jerk reaction.'

    Humble reply, as I have had...

    At least do not knee yourself in the literals...

    If that was possible...

    Dealing with scholarship is not simple and easy. Take this, leave that...

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  58. I figured you were pretty stressed so I tried to be kool...

    I have sent out many resumes (security-by-laws) and cvs (academic) lately. Have an interview in Vancouver, Monday.

    Still have the homecare work...

    Lord, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, please bless Jeff, Chuckles and I and anyone reading this, financially, socially and spiritually in your service.

    Thanks, sir.

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  59. You know Jeff, just a deduction and possibility. Perhaps a move and change would be a blessing...

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    ReplyDelete
  61. Lord, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, please bless Jeff, Chuckles and I and anyone reading this, financially, socially and spiritually in your service.

    Thank you.

    You know Jeff, just a deduction and possibility. Perhaps a move and change would be a blessing...

    That's what I am planning, as I will be forced to move out, possibly in a few months. The problem is, I have no money to move, and I figure I would need at least $1000.00 just to move to a 1-bedroom apartment, after looking at rental prices locally. On one site I signed up at last night for a job, I noted that I would be willing to relocate if the company pays for expenses (really, I would need them to pay for any moving expenses, including renting a truck, plus the first 2 or 3 months of rent, or whatever it required, at least until I started making money so I could pay my own way).

    Even though I love the house itself, I now want to move away from here badly, but I hope that wherever I move to, it will be better, and not worse or even just as bad. I hate snow and cold weather, but at this point of desperation, I would even be willing to move to a cold climate (even though I know I would hate it). My ideal place would be a tropical climate. Maybe I should start applying for jobs in Hawaii, Guam, Fiji, etc.

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