Sunday, December 14, 2008
Double feature: God is not my buddy/Two types of knowledge
'God is not my buddy' is a new presentation based on thoughts I have had the last few months.
'Two types of knowledge' is again work from my MPhil/PhD theses that I have presented prior to having more readership. Therefore it is still new to most of you and I have no problem presenting it once again.
Thanks, and comments are appreciated.
God is not my buddy
I hold to orthodox Christian theology within the Reformed tradition. I came to this not primarily by family or by being led to the Lord by a person or persons, but by God providing influences as a child and eventually through years of academic study where with God's help I sought to be as objective as possible, although I do not claim complete objectivity.
I reason that in God's love I am saved by grace through faith in the atoning and resurrection work of Christ, and Ephesians 2: 8-10 is a good summary of my reasoning.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (New American Standard Bible)
8For (A)by grace you have been saved (B)through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is (C)the gift of God;
9(D)not as a result of works, so that (E)no one may boast.
10For we are His workmanship, (F)created in (G)Christ Jesus for (H)good works, which God (I)prepared beforehand so that we would (J)walk in them.
A buddy of mine would rid me of many of my very annoying problems, if possible. If reasonably possible, a buddy would rid me of my vitreous floaters if he/she was an opthamologist. A buddy would assist me with overcoming my sleep apnea, if he/she was a qualified surgeon. A buddy would help me find a good woman to marry, if he/she could.
Basically, from my problem of evil research, I could conclude that often the critic of the New Testament God, rejects this God because this God will often not do the good things for each of us that a buddy would do.
A buddy would not let us suffer and die if he or she could prevent it, and would not, for the most part, allow our dearest friends to suffer and die.
And yet, within Christianity God is viewed as this perfect and holy God and yet so much evil exists.
I reason God created human beings in such a way that he knew they would freely fall into sin. They were not forced to coerced to do so, and yet God willed it. God would save those he predestined and the elect would have experienced the problem of evil, sin, suffering, salvation in Christ, death, and the results of the atoning and resurrection work of Christ culminated in each person within their personal resurrection and existence in the everlasting Kingdom.
In my PhD thesis I speculate that these were the type of human beings that God wished to develop. If Adam and Eve or the first human like beings had been different and were significantly free and never committed evil acts in thought and deed, they would not have developed into the type of human beings the creator God appears to ultimately desire. God has every right and the power to create the significantly good and free creatures he wants. He has chosen to have redeemed and restored human physical beings in his culminated Kingdom, rather than sinless ones, other than Jesus Christ himself, of course, who is both God and man.
I do not agree with theistic and Christian free will theorists that cite incompatibilism and that God could not create significantly free beings that would never commit evil acts. In agreement with compatibilism and many within Reformed theology, I reason this limits God's sovereignty, and frankly overlooks the fact that angels are likely significantly free creatures and many of them stayed loyal to God and never fell into evil. This means that God very likely created significantly free spiritual beings that never sinned and committed evil acts, and therefore I conclude that God could have made significantly free physical creatures that were human like that would not have sinned and committed wrong acts in thought and deed.
The fact that God chose to create human beings as he did does not make him less than perfectly good and holy, as his motives in willingly allowing the problem evil remain pure and the infinite God can use all the sinful acts of fallen finite creatures for the greater good, which includes a culminated everlasting Kingdom.
But, God is not my buddy, although my most important friend, and no one is the Church should treat him as a buddy in this realm. In the completed Kingdom of God, I reason that discipline will not include the use of suffering (Revelation 21: 4), but I am not ruling out that even perfect finite human beings do need direction from God that could be considered a type of discipline. Will we be buddies with Christ? Well perhaps in a sense, he had friends while on this earth, and it shall be interesting to see how things unfold.
Two types of knowledge
Concerning my research on the problem of evil, within formal philosophy comes two important terms related to how human beings obtain knowledge. For those not well educated in theology or philosophy, please do not be intimidated by the terms if they are new to you. Remembering the actual terms in my view is not as important as understanding to some degree, the concepts that may arise in discussions concerning the problem of evil. The terms are a priori and a posteriori. I shall review these terms and related concepts in an obviously non-exhaustive manner.
Louis P. Pojman explains that the term a priori comes from the Latin “preceding” and is knowledge that is not based on sense experience but is innate or known to human beings by the meanings of words and definitions. Pojman (1996: 595). Arthur Pap defines a priori knowledge as being independent of experience. Pap (1973: 666). Since this knowledge leads to truth independent of experience, once a concept is understood it will be seen as necessarily true logically, meaning that it will not be refuted at any time empirically (through the use of the senses). Pap (1973: 667). Simon Blackburn notes that a proposition is knowable a priori if it can be known without experience of a certain set of events in the actual world. Blackburn allows for some experience to be obtained in order for a priori knowledge to occur. Blackburn (1996: 21). He explains that this type of knowledge is very controversial and it is not clear how pure thought without the use of experience can lead to any true knowledge at all. Blackburn (1996: 21). Some empiricists have attempted to deny that any real knowledge can be obtained from a priori means. Blackburn (1996: 21).
Laurence BonJour notes that many empiricists would hold that all actual philosophical concepts are derived and known through experience. BonJour (1996: 30). Blackburn points out that Immanuel Kant dealt with this issue as it was supposed that a priori concepts cannot be understood from experience alone but come from presuppositions in a mode of thought about reality. Blackburn (1996: 22).
In the Critique of Pure Reason of 1781 and revised in 1787, Kant explains that the forms of appearance from which sensations can be understood are not themselves the empirical sensations. Kant (1781)(1787)(1929)(2006: 66). BonJour states that a priori knowledge is independent of empirical experience, meaning that something can be accepted as knowledge if it does not depend upon sensory experience. BonJour (1996: 29).
Very importantly in my view, BonJour explains that a deductively valid argument can use a priori reasoning, even if the correctness of the argument is challenged. BonJour (1996: 30). This would be very important for non-empirical reasoning in the areas of theology and philosophy in regard to the problem of evil and other topics, but even in other disciplines such as scientific theory where logical and reasonable deductions are at times made without empirical evidence. In other words, it is possible to deduce with logic, reason, and argumentation, truth, even without empirical evidence. BonJour mentions that rationalists that state God exists are using a priori reasoning. I do not deny that human beings have presuppositions in the areas of knowledge, but I reason that experience and God given nature influences those concepts. It seems doubtful to me that human beings can have philosophical presuppositions without some innate understanding and experience to make sense of reality in order to presuppose.
It is also Biblical and reasonable to deduce that God creates human beings with certain innate understanding of reality that will be assisted by experience. Romans 1:19 explains that God made human beings with a natural understanding of his existence. Perhaps this would be a priori knowledge and would not exist entirely on human presuppositions. The existence of natural knowledge of God does not necessarily mean that human beings worship or obey God.
Pojman writes that a posteriori comes the Latin “the later” and is knowledge that is obtained from human sense experience only, as in the five senses. Pojman (1996: 595). Blackburn reasons that something can be known a posteriori when it cannot be known a priori. Blackburn (1996: 21-22). From a Christian perspective, God through Jesus Christ has revealed himself to finite humanity in an effective, limited, empirical fashion, and this would be considered a posteriori knowledge of God, although God as pure spirit remains beyond the physical senses.
BLACKBURN, SIMON (1996) ‘A priori/A posteriori’, in Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy, p. 21-22. Oxford, Oxford University Press.
BONJOUR, LAURENCE. (1996) ‘A Priori’, in Robert Audi (ed.), The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy, Cambridge, Cambridge University Press.
EDWARDS, PAUL AND ARTHUR PAP (1973) (eds), ‘A priori knowledge: Introduction’, A Modern Introduction To Philosophy, New York, The Free Press.
KANT, IMMANUEL (1781)(1787)(1929)(2006) Critique of Pure Reason, Translated by Norman Kemp Smith, London, Macmillan.
http://www.hkbu.edu.hk/~ppp/cpr/toc.html.
POJMAN, LOUIS P. (1996) Philosophy: The Quest for Truth, New York, Wadsworth Publishing Company.
If God was our buddy the man is white could be correct instead of in error. I am not denying God's ability to heal or provide various kinds of blessings within his sovereign will.
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Russ,
ReplyDeleteI have a lot of reading to do this evening. So, I am going to just comment on the first part of your essay.
God is not my buddy.
I think I want to be very concise in my statement here for we have come to disagreements in the past over such topics. Here is what I believe and I think you agree;
God desired to have something of real significance that would interact with Him in a free relationship. For that relationship to work freely, there would have to be the choice to acknowledge God or disregard Him. For however long Adam and Eve acknowledged God, there was a relationship. Only when they chose to neglect the relationship in interest of self, did God experience adversity. Adversity was made capable by God granting Adam and Eve the opportunity to live for self to the neglect of relationship.
Russ,
I have been feeling a burdon to take on an issue in the Church at large. Stop by my blog (as I know you are faithful to do) and give me some advice on this issue. Thanks,
Jim Jim's blog; 'Journaling For Growth'.
Thanks very much, Jim.
ReplyDelete'God desired to have something of real significance that would interact with Him in a free relationship. For that relationship to work freely, there would have to be the choice to acknowledge God or disregard Him.'
Both sides have fine scholarship on their side, but:
I do not think that significant freedom requires this choice. Rather, beings that are made significantly free cannot be forced or coerced to follow God, This does not mean that they must have an option to perhaps commit wrong acts, but are simply determined with soft-determinism/compatibilism to follow God freely as in not under compulsion.
This is a difference between free will theory/incompatibilism and sovereignty theory/compatibilism.
So, I do not think God had to make human like beings that to be significantly free would ultimately need to choose to sin, or would not, but yet he did create some angels and human beings that would fall, and he restores some human beings within his plan.
God must have more freedom than we do as he is significantly free and infinite and yet within his perfect nature he cannot choose to do wrong acts.
He has greater freedom to do good and does not need the option to commit evil.
Christ as God and a perfect human being also did not have a sinful nature and is considered by most orthodox theologians to not to have been able to sin, even though he faced temptation. Yet overcoming temptation kept him trusting in the Father,
This to me in excellent evidence that a significantly free rational being can have a perfectly good nature only without the option to commit evil.
God's nature is infinite and perfectly good.
Christ's human nature was perfectly good and finite, and of course he was also infinite God.
'For however long Adam and Eve acknowledged God, there was a relationship. Only when they chose to neglect the relationship in interest of self, did God experience adversity. Adversity was made capable by God granting Adam and Eve the opportunity to live for self to the neglect of relationship.'
Adam and Eve and humanity can certainly to some degree see the error and hopelessness of their ways, and in regeneration can turn from this in order to be with God forever.
Good conversation Russ.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment on my blog this evening.
Jim
Jim, I am thankful to be able to share and discuss some of my PhD material prior to the Viva/defence.
ReplyDeleteYou are assisting me with homework.
Thanks for considering my concepts.
God bless,
Russ
God is our Father, he infact has a much deeper and intimate relationship with us, than a 'buddy'. He knows what is good and bad for us unlike a buddy, and will be there for us when all other friends fail.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, Holy Man.
ReplyDeleteThanks again.
Russ:)
Russ, thanks for stopping by my blog.There is so much in this post of yours one could discuss the questions of suffering, obedience, reconciliation, incarnation - for hours. However, after reading this post I kept thinking about a statement I heard recently about freedom. "Control is the opposite of love." One needs to reflect a little about this because the nuances are great. However, I believe it to be true with regards to God's love for humanity. In His perfect love He is able to surrender us and not coerse or manipulate or control our responses in order to fulfill something He needs from us.
ReplyDeleteEven though not scholarly, I love the picture of freedom that emerges out of The Shack. The question is really are we ever free while we are in relationship with another? Relationship/Community requires us to lay down ourselves and thus sacrificing our freedom for the sake of another.
i read, you say that God created angels who could not sin, well doesn't the Bible says that a big number of angels joined Satan,eh?? (they did fell into sin.......)
ReplyDeleteAs of Adam & Eve, different from Angels,they were created in God's image free will yet they sined,but that does require the study of anthropolgy also(and not that a philosophy alone)but will talk of it later on....as anthropology is very important subject as concerning the Fall of men.
So there ain't nothing wrong with christian free will theory,but there could be something(a lot) wrong with reformed or Deformed theology!
As of the problem of evil,that's subject to talk a lot of....(will write of it on a separate comment)
Hey Russ,
ReplyDeleteI've only read the 1st part of your "double feature", God is not my buddy. I think your reasoning is sound here and I don't really have anything to add--can you believe it?!
I've never really liked the idea of "God is my buddy". It's not that God cannot be my friend, as you pointed out regarding our relationship with Jesus. But the idea of God as my buddy is just too trite.
Arlene brought up "The Shack" and how the relationship between God and man is revealed in that book. While at times it can seem irreverent, I do believe that the theological principles are correct in The Shack. As personal beings, we definitely do have a "familial" and "friendly" relationship with our God through Jesus Christ, but it is so much more meaningful than what "buddy" can represent.
Oh well..., Mrs. Moogly is ready to go--tallk to you later!!
GGM
Thanks, very much Arlene.
ReplyDelete'i read, you say that God created angels who could not sin, well doesn't the Bible says that a big number of angels joined Satan,eh?? (they did fell into sin.......)'
ReplyDeleteI fully realize that from the context of my writing. My point still stands that God did create significantly free creatures that never sinned, the obedient angels. This is a significant point for compatibilism that God can determine that significantly free beings he has made will never commit wrong acts.
We also cannot be sure that all the angels had the choice to commit good or evil, but we know that God willingly allowed some to have that choice and they fell. It could be that with the use of soft-determinism/compatibilism his loyal angels were determined to have natures that would not do wrong or consider committing wrong acts. It could also be that all the angels had the choice to do wrong and the ones he desired simply never did and never will.
As God is infinite and omnipotent, remember God wills all things. In our resurrected state will be determined not to commit wrong acts in sin, but this will done freely within our perfect nature and we shall remember and understand the consequences of our previous sins and I reason God will use this as influence over us in keeping up pure.
'So there ain't nothing wrong with christian free will theory,but there could be something(a lot) wrong with reformed or Deformed theology!
As of the problem of evil,that's subject to talk a lot of....(will write of it on a separate comment)'
Although there is agreement on some points with sovereignty views, there is plenty wrong with free will theory and I have dealt with free will theory from scholars many times on this blog, including with this article.
Thanks for commenting.
Russ
Arminianism and free will
Jonathan Edwards and free will
Thanks, Jason.
ReplyDeleteYou are always appreciated.
Russ:)
Anon seems to dislike Reformed Theology (I'm pretty bright sometimes! :-)
ReplyDeleteWhat's deformed about it? Arminianism is also "reformed", by the way.
I could be like Anon and simply make a pronouncement and call Arminian Theology "ignorant" and be done with it; but I would assume that my Arminian Brothers and Sisters wouldn't be convinced even though I am "The Great Googly Moogly" :-)
Not to start a fight with anyone, but this "deformed" Christian would like to know what Anon's issue is--and strawmen are not allowed.
GGM
Thanks, Jason.
ReplyDeleteBesides the blog reply, I replied to him by email as he emailed me as well, and he is free to reply to both of us. I have debated issues with him previously and I remain firm in my views developed from years of academic study. Years of academic study do not necessarily make my views correct, but they are not easily dismissed, as I expect you realize.
Yes, Reformed has a broad range of meanings. Like you, Jason, I am Reformed of the Reformation with Calvinist leanings, although I do not see Reformed and Calvinist as synonymous terms. I use the term Reformed for broader context, but I am a Calvinist as well.
I suppose in a broad sense there are some Arminians who consider themselves Reformed. When I attended Columbia Bible College there was discussion on whether or not Arminian Mennonites were Reformed, Protestant Reformed, or just Anabaptist.
Russ
I enjoyed this read and I truly like the way you put this all together.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the encouragement, Leon.
ReplyDeleteI am glad you appreciate the article.
Russ:)
Linking would be great - as Jim will attest, I do not have a ton of time for blogging and so I do not post daily or read daily. Hope that is okay. Just let me know.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Arlene.
ReplyDeleteI will link us from this end once I am back from my walk.
I am cutting blogging time as I have a PhD defence in January and then will look for full-time work.
But, God willing, I plan to run my two blogs for as long as possible.
Russ
If Adam and Eve or the first human like beings had been different and were significantly free and never committed evil acts in thought and deed, they would not have developed into the type of human beings the creator God appears to ultimately desire. God has every right and the power to create the significantly good and free creatures he wants. He has chosen to have redeemed and restored human physical beings in his culminated Kingdom, rather than sinless ones...
ReplyDeleteInteresting. I never thought of it quite like that. This could explain how God could foreknow that man would sin, and that most people would spend eternity in Hell, and yet God created us anyway, knowing all of that would happen.
...the fact that angels are likely significantly free creatures and many of them stayed loyal to God and never fell into evil. This means that God very likely created significantly free spiritual beings that never sinned and committed evil acts...
Huh. This almost seems to be saying that even the holy angels are elected. This could make sense, because it would guarantee that most of the angels would stay faithful to God. Otherwise, all (100%) of the angels could have followed Satan and turned against God, and that would have been detrimental to God's glory, because it would show that all intelligent beings that God created turned against Him.
The fact that God chose to create human beings as he did does not make him less than perfectly good and holy...
We put so much importance on ourselves. We think that if God doesn't treat us nicely, then God is evil. The fact is, we don't deserve to be treated nicely by God. We fully deserve Hell. Besides that, we are only creatures that God created. God has a perfect right to completely destroy each and every one of us if He wants to, just like I have the right to shape something out of clay and then smash it. We tend to think of God as a human or ourselves as God; in other words, we tend to think of ourselves as God's equal, and say, "That's not fair for You to treat us that way, God!" But, in truth, it is completely fair. In fact, if He were truly and completely "fair" to us, He would throw us all into Hell right now. The fact that we continue to exist on this earth is all mercy, and completely by His grace. Anything more than Hell is a merciful act of grace to us by God. Therefore, even if we lived our entire life as a mindless vegetable, without arms or legs, that would be more than we deserve.
Your article reminds me of the BUDDY JESUS doll, which is surely an offense to Christ. Images like THIS ONE or THIS ONE also tend to show disrespect to our Savior, yet seem to exemplify the flippant, discourteous, irreverant, "buddy-buddy" attitude that some Christians today seem to have about and toward Jesus.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteSo there ain't nothing wrong with christian free will theory,but there could be something(a lot) wrong with reformed or Deformed theology!
If there were only free will, then God would be basically leaving man's salvation and the angel's obedience purely up to chance. And the possibility would then exist that nobody would accept Jesus, and that all the angels would have followed Satan. All the angels, and every human being ever born, would then be burning in Hell for all eternity, and God would be all alone in Heaven. Jesus would have died in vain, and God would have failed to accomplish His will.
In order for God to guarantee that His will is accomplished, He must necessarily control certain things. There must be certain safeguards in place that will guarantee the outcome. We tend to think of words like 'manipulation' or 'coercion' as bad or negative things, and I'm sure those are not the best words to use in this context, but God must cause certain things to happen in people's lives, as well as in the lives of angels, to make sure that His will is ultimately accomplished. This means that there cannot be 100% free will, either on the part of men, or on the part of angels. On the other hand, I do not believe that God is a total dictator or puppet master.
Christianity is full of paradoxes. Not contradictions, but paradoxes. God was on Earth and in Heaven at the same time. God was dead and alive at the same time. God was a man and God at the same time. God is three Persons and one Being at the same time. God is perfectly good and all-knowing and all-powerful, and He hates evil, yet evil still exists. In like manner, I believe there is free will and predestination (i.e., Election) at the same time. The thing I'm not sure of is, how much of each one exists? In other words, what portion is predestination, and what portion is free will? I tend to think that the greater portion is predestination. Man has a will, but his will comes from God. Men make a choice to come to Christ, but even that choice is caused by God. (Especially in light of the fact that a spiritually dead person cannot choose life when they're dead, because they don't even have the spiritual wisdom to do so; also, they are corrupt, and they love their sin more than they love God, so why would they choose God over sin when they love their sin more?) Those who come to Christ do so by faith, but even that faith was given to that person by God, as a gift. And if you say that everyone is given faith, but it depends on who acts on that faith, then what is it that causes that person to act on that faith? There must be something that distinguishes one person that chooses Christ from another person that does not choose Christ. And if you say that decision is due to the person, then that means that the person's salvation is due to the person, and therefore, they can thank themselves for their salvation, rather than thanking Christ. And not only that, but they can brag for all eternity how they are better than those in Hell, because they chose the right way, and those in Hell did not. So therefore, they are deserving of Heaven, because the decision was thanks to their own self. They can then say to God, "Aren't you proud of me, God? I made the right choice, unlike those horrible people who are now in Hell, who didn't do the right thing, like I did. They deserve to burn in Hell, because they didn't make the right choice." They can beat their chest and brag before God for all eternity, and they can rightfully and justly be like the Publican, in the parable of the Publican and the sinner, and God can't say squat to them, because they made the right decision, in and of themselves, independent of God's intervention.
Instead, however, the truth is that man comes to Christ, but cannot do so without the Holy Spirit first preparing their heart. I believe that God acts first, then man follows. But even man's following is caused by God. I think this is another of the many paradoxes in Christianity. We can do nothing outside of Christ; both as a believer, and also concerning coming to Christ. For, if we are powerless without Christ as believers, how can we think ourselves able to gain salvation on our own as unbelievers? We cannot even come to Christ for salvation without His causing us to do so.
'Interesting. I never thought of it quite like that. This could explain how God could foreknow that man would sin, and that most people would spend eternity in Hell, and yet God created us anyway, knowing all of that would happen.'
ReplyDeleteYes, this is a somewhat original (well probably not totally) concept for my PhD thesis.
'Huh. This almost seems to be saying that even the holy angels are elected. This could make sense, because it would guarantee that most of the angels would stay faithful to God. Otherwise, all (100%) of the angels could have followed Satan and turned against God, and that would have been detrimental to God's glory, because it would show that all intelligent beings that God created turned against Him.'
Seems to me I read in Thiessen that angels are not a race, but a company. I reason they are not necessarily related in nature, although they very well could be. We cannot be sure that they all have the same or similar type spiritual nature, and so just because some sinned does not mean they all would or could. God may have made some with a different type of initially perfectly good and yet significantly free nature that would cause them never to commit wrong acts. Under God's direction of course.
It could be all the angels have a similar spiritual nature and some were allowed to sin against God and others did not and never will. The loyal angels may have been tempted and simply stayed good. By God's direction of course.
Augustine noted that a finite good could be corrupted, unlike a infinite good, this is likely technically true. But I state that an infinite God can determine that a creature created with significant freedom and a perfectly good nature never commit wrong acts. This could be done whether or not the creature had the option to commit wrong acts and therefore fall.
I do not like Buddy Jesus. To me it strikes as a slap in the face to Christianity.
Thanks, Jeff.
Russ:)
'If there were only free will, then God would be basically leaving man's salvation and the angel's obedience purely up to chance. And the possibility would then exist that nobody would accept Jesus, and that all the angels would have followed Satan. All the angels, and every human being ever born, would then be burning in Hell for all eternity, and God would be all alone in Heaven. Jesus would have died in vain, and God would have failed to accomplish His will.'
ReplyDeleteGood point. And plus God's infinite nature and omnipotent nature means he wills even what he allows. Humanity as it is, other than Christ, would be damned unless certain persons were regenerated by the Holy Spirit and the atoning and resurrection work applied to them as believers.
'This means that there cannot be 100% free will, either on the part of men, or on the part of angels. On the other hand, I do not believe that God is a total dictator or puppet master. '
Yes, compatibilism allows God or an outside force to simultaneously will the significant free actions of another.
'There must be something that distinguishes one person that chooses Christ from another person that does not choose Christ. And if you say that decision is due to the person, then that means that the person's salvation is due to the person, and therefore, they can thank themselves for their salvation, rather than thanking Christ.'
God decides who he shall restore and have within his everlasting Kingdom. It is grace and it is done justly as he wills.
Thanks, Jeff.
Russ
Hi Russ,
ReplyDeleteArlene is telling the truth. She may not get back to you if you comment. But, she does make rounds on blogs that she is committed to reading. She is a solid Christian.
I think I met her through GGM some months ago.
Hi Arlene.
No worries, thank you, Jim.
ReplyDeleteRuss:)
I reason they are not necessarily related in nature, although they very well could be.
ReplyDeleteI can accept this as a speculative possibility, based on the various heavenly creatures described in Revelation, assuming all those heavenly creatures described in Revelation are indeed angels (and I think they are). The Bible talks about angels and archangels. I have always assumed that those different terms simply refer to rank. However, maybe it refers to different types of beings instead.
While I understand the concern and agree that flippancy about or toward Jesus is rampant today, I'm wondering how a smiling or a laughing Jesus would be considered wrong? Jesus was fully (and truly) human and laughed and cried like the rest of us. As our Brother (as well as our Lord), his relation to us is intimate--through pain and joy, laughter and even anger (though His is a righteous anger, of course).
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I don't think that picturing Jesus as smiling or laughing is disrespecting our Lord. His humanity is forever; so His "human emotions" are forever, though, of course, untainted by sin.
GGM
'I can accept this as a speculative possibility, based on the various heavenly creatures described in Revelation, assuming all those heavenly creatures described in Revelation are indeed angels (and I think they are). The Bible talks about angels and archangels. I have always assumed that those different terms simply refer to rank. However, maybe it refers to different types of beings instead.'
ReplyDeleteJeff, I reason in similar terms.
Russ:)
Thanks, Jason.
ReplyDeleteThe Buddy Christ doll/action figure I do not care for as it seems disrespectful and I agree that Jesus as fully human did smile and laugh.
I do not have a philosophical problem with pictures of Christ, but would not buy one as I prefer to pray to the invisible God in Christ, and wait until I meet Christ in person.
The pictures you posted on the faith ministry, I hate those teachings. My wife has MS, and her family is into the blab it and grab it health and wealth gospel.
ReplyDeletethey told her she has MS because she lives in sin. so I asked them, why is it you have epilepsy, her Dad said it is because he is so rightoues the devil is attacking him.
that is just the tip of the ice berg when it comes to them. rick b
'they told her she has MS because she lives in sin. so I asked them, why is it you have epilepsy, her Dad said it is because he is so rightoues the devil is attacking him.'
ReplyDeleteAt best, Satan is the secondary cause of his epilepsy as God is the primary cause of all things.
Cheers, Rick.
Russ:)
Russ,
ReplyDeleteI never though of God as a buddy. That just seems a very foreign concept to me. I don't know what this buddy doll is, so I guess I'm ignorant. Jesus called God "Father" and taught us to pray that way. There are father's who are buddies to their child and there is usually something lacking in such a thing to my mind. That isn't a father's job. I believe much in the relationships of this world parallel relationships of the spiritual and is presented this way Scripturally. I think these relationships are purposely designed by God and it is to guide us on how we should response and approach not only each other, but God as well. Of course, the examples are models far below the level of spiritual reality. This isn't an attempt to trivialize God in any way, shape or form. I view the examples as a means to help us understand and to raise us up.
Jesus comes across as a man who had friendships, enjoyed good times with people around him, yet I don't see anything in those associations where anyone would have called it buddy-buddy.
I did my wrestling with the a priori, etc thirty years ago, prefer to leave that in the past. Probably forgot a lot of Kant and Hume and all those boys anyway.
I don't have a lot in the way of difference with your positions. I am still on the fence on some things. I tend toward what Jeff said was saying.
There are some aspects of Election I am still working out for myself. problem is, I don't quite have the right words to explain where I have my hang ups with this. I can't even explain what i just said in a way that won't prejudice the argument. This is because the are connotations by common usage on certain words that distort where I have my problem. If I ever manage to untangle this know in my own mind, I'll say what it is.
Larry E.
Thanks, Larry, as always.:)
ReplyDelete'I don't know what this buddy doll is, so I guess I'm ignorant.'
Jeff linked it in his comments.
'Jesus comes across as a man who had friendships, enjoyed good times with people around him, yet I don't see anything in those associations where anyone would have called it buddy-buddy.'
Agreed. How things will be with Christ once our sin is gone in the restored Kingdom is yet to be seen. If Christ is our buddy in any way, it will not be the same as between two typical human beings.
'I did my wrestling with the a priori, etc thirty years ago, prefer to leave that in the past. Probably forgot a lot of Kant and Hume and all those boys anyway.'
For the sake of integrity, they were unavoidable in my MPhil/PhD theses.
'I don't have a lot in the way of difference with your positions. I am still on the fence on some things. I tend toward what Jeff said was saying'
I keep working through issues and trying to often present more than one option.
Russ:)
You are suggesting that God is not our buddy as a buddy would rid us of our ailments and problems etc. The Bible however does mention Christ calling us "Friends" if we obey God. I'm sorry, I'm not sure where the exact location and context of this verse is. I would conclude that God is our friend but not our buddy. God does say "No" to our prayers sometimes it seems, but He is still Good, Holy, and Perfect. There is a difference between these two terms of friend and buddy and God's Sovereign Plans, Perfect Goodness and Will as opposed to ours.
ReplyDelete-God is my Friend!-
'There is a difference between these two terms of friend and buddy and God's Sovereign Plans, Perfect Goodness and Will as opposed to ours.'
ReplyDeleteAgreed, and thanks.
hello Russ,
ReplyDeleteSorry that i haven't been around as much lately. Our house was broken into, so we are recovering from that.
Just this week i had a lot of questions, there are some things about God and why He allows certain things to happen that i don't understand. But He is still God, and we will always keep our faith and hope in Him.
Blessings to you Russ
I don't have a problem with Jesus smiling and laughing. True joy comes from God, after all. Jesus went to weddings, and I'm sure He was not a sour-faced killjoy at the weddings.
ReplyDeleteI do see a problem, however, when I read stories or hear televangelists talk about when they visited heaven and slapped Jesus on the back or gave him a high-five, or ran around playing 'tag' or some game with Him. Some have even suggested that Jesus would probably crack up at some off-color jokes.
I found this on a website called Jesus Of The Week:
"Okay, okay! I can't take it anymore! After receiving trillions of submissions of "Buddy Christ" from the movie Dogma, I will finally appease the masses. Buddy Christ is officially Jesus of the Week for this week.
For those of you who don't recognize Him, Buddy Christ is from the movie Dogma -- a sort of gospel according to Kevin Smith. Recap: angels and apostles and the like -- portrayed by hot Hollywood hoohaas like Matt Damon and Salma Hayek -- go carousing around New Jersey, trying to stop an apocalypse. And make religious jokes.
In the movie, Cardinal Glick (played by George Carlin) heads up a campaign to make Jesus and the Catholic church a little more fun and friendly. The campaign slogan is "Catholicism - WOW!" and "Buddy Christ" is its spokesman.
If I can be frank, the movie didn't really get my holy water bubbling or anything... but it is kind of fun to see our dear old Jesus giving the Bill-Clinton-style thumbs up with a wink.
So here you go, my people. Buddy Christ. Ta-da."
Then he goes on to post a similar "Buddy Christ" image like the one that I linked to in my earlier comment.
Here is a link to Buddy Christ Bobble Head doll.
Here is a blog article that is similar to Russ' article: JESUS ISN'T MY BUDDY: THE GREAT APOSTASY
And, if anyone is too lazy, or just unwilling, to visit that other blog site, here is the conclusion of the article:
"I realized that by thinking I was a “good person” my entire life, it had basically kept me from salvation. After all, what does a good person need a savior for? It almost seemed like an over-dramatic thing for Jesus to do. But once I saw myself as a sinner … a real, going to hell sort of sinner … the good news became good news.
So that was the story I shared with the youth pastor. And do you know what he said? He told me that he didn’t think it was necessary for someone to recognize their own sinfulness in order to be a Christian. He told me he wasn’t sure he’d ever really grasped that fact about himself, but he “knew” he was saved because he’d prayed a prayer when he was younger.
It was so disturbing. I sat there in the youth pastor’s office thinking, “Oh, this poor man. He’s missed the basic truth of the gospel. It appears that he’s probably never truly repented because he’s never even seen his own wretched condition and his own personal need for Jesus’ sacrifice.” He seemed to think that as long as he prayed his little “magic prayer” as a young person, he was good to go. And then he not only had his entrance into heaven someday, he also got to go through this life with Jesus as his personal “buddy.”
Well, ever since that day when my eyes were opened to my own sinful condition, Jesus hasn’t been my “buddy” … He’s been my Savior and my Lord."
'Sorry that i haven't been around as much lately. Our house was broken into, so we are recovering from that.'
ReplyDeleteTamela, I am very sorry to read that news. I pray now that God will be kind even as he has willingly allowed this to occur.
Sad to state, but your life situation fits my blog article.
I was burgled twice while in England, and I can relate somewhat to your situation.
Russ
Thanks, Jeff for the links.
ReplyDeleteRuss
I came to thois blog via the discussion on eternal and everlasting
ReplyDeleteOne of my major mental limitations is the ability to imagine being outside of time ... like God is (although as someone blogged He is inside and outside of time)
My simplistic picture of etermity is a hula-hoop ... a circle with no begining and no end. Somewhere on that two meter diameter hoop is a piece of cotton tied around the piping ... and that is ALL of time ... from the begining to the end of time when Jesus returns
Now eternal God sees ALL of eternity ... no begining no end and hence predestination / election etc seem to lose their significance because the very words are "time-bound" or am I missing something?
God's knowledge is thus also free of time ... the two types only relate to ours! But the debate is still interesting ... especially when we debate the fate of those who will never hear the good news
"Buddy" The little boys asked why Mary chose to give her child a swearword as his name. Maybe as believers we have also contributed to "belittling" the Name of Jesus by our "buddying" and (this being Christmas) treating Him as (a rather stingy) father Christmas who doesn't always give us what we ask for in the format that we request.
When God made us "in our likeness" (Genesis 1:26) maybe one of God's desires was for a people who "are one as we are one" (John 17) and who return God's "love". The question is: "Can love be forced?" or is this a relationship that necessitates our cooperation and choice? God certainly has gone and continues togo out of His way to "draw us to Himself", but what absolutely amazes me is that ALMIGHTY GOD SEEMS TO ALLOW STUPID WORTHLESS ME TO "THUMB MY NOSE" AT WHAT IS FREELY OFFERED TO ME ... AN ETERNAL LOVING RELATIONSHIP WITH AN AMAZING HOLY GOD
C.S.Lewis tells of a vision a lady had of God in the form of a man holding a tiny nut in His hand. The nut represented all God's creation! Lewis' comment is "God didn't need man, He chose to love us into being, and He choses to love us to perfection".
WHAT A WONDERFUL GOD WE HAVE!!!!
Reg
Thanks very much for the first time comment, Reg.
ReplyDeleteI like to bring in new readers.
Points:
Human beings are finite and need to reason things out, unlike God.
Therefore the culminated Kingdom in my view will feature some type of time for persons.
God does not force his love, but on the other hand, the corruptness in nature and resulting choices of humanity makes a libertarian free will belief in God impossible (Romans 1-3).
A corrupted creature cannot make itself not corrupt and pleasing to the perfect God by choice and cannot be saved until God regenerates and makes belief possible. Therefore, God chooses (Ephesians 1, Romans 8) who he desires and molds and guides the spirit/mind to freely believe without force or coercion. The regeneration process does not purge a person of a limited free will or of sin (of sin in this realm), but provides the person with the gospel truth and the ability to believe it.
God bless, and Merry Christmas.
Russ:)
Thanks Russ
ReplyDeleteI agree that the fact of God's total otherness to us (although we are to some extent "like God") is probably the greatest mystery of all ... I suspect that we will still be eternal learners about and of God once our current time is no more ... and I guess that that statement is in agreement with yours that in eternity there may be time of some type
Reg