Wednesday, October 01, 2008

More on fideism

More on fideism

Bow Lake, Alberta (photo from trekearth.com)

Please note, within this article, I have primarily in mind recent debates with persons I DO NOT blog with.

From blogging, as expected, I have been in some debates/discussions. Persons are reasonable and kind most of the time as ideas can be exchanged and feelings are not hurt. However, at times a few people on certain issues seem to become very set in their ways and closed-minded.

I realize it often takes quite a bit of knowledge and understanding of an academic subject before I can become dogmatic concerning it. With most subjects, I am more of a student than a teacher. This is certainly the same for other persons if they are honest with themselves. My areas of expertise are the nature of God, theodicy/the problem of evil, free will and determinism, but I can still learn even in these areas that I have been working on in research theses for years.

It appears to me that many persons with both religious and non-religious worldviews at times concerning certain subjects are fideists. They operate with an over-reliance on faith, as they rely heavily on the understanding of their own worldview and perspective at the expense of other views and evidence which may challenge their own ideas.

I realize fideism is usually defined in the context of religion, but I reason those non-religious persons can also potentially rely too much on faith over reason in the rejection of a particular religious position and in the personal worldview held to. Fideism in an unorthodox fashion could be defined as faith over reason in the rejection of religious truth.

To use figurative language, just because someone is born onto the green team, or has had an intellectual and/or emotional experience with the green team and joined it, does not make the green team the team with the most truth in comparison to the blue, red, yellow, black, or white teams, etc.

Whether or not the green team is essentially correct in worldview is dependent on reason and evidence, and faith can be involved.

I am not against faith. Christianity is dependent on reasonable faith, as God revealed himself historically through scribes, prophets, apostles and Christ himself. This took place over 1500 years and through various persons and in various regions. It was documented in Scripture and individual books were copied many times. There was also an oral tradition. Christianity also relies on philosophy, as in, for example, the concept of the first cause, and archaeology to verify that places described in the Bible actually existed as described.

There are primary issues in Christianity that require reason and faith, and there are secondary issues that require reason and faith. When Christians are dealing with critics of the faith, primary and secondary doctrines and positions can be challenged. When Christians are dealing with other Christians with differing views on certain subjects, for the most part, primary doctrines are agreed upon and secondary doctrines and positions can be challenged. Near maximally efficient Christian witness in these areas requires significant use of reason, research and open-mindedness, to make sure that presentations are not largely blinded by bias and fideism.

I do not claim complete objectivity. In many ways, we are made up of what we read, hear, and experience. But, in a sense, all things are intellectually up for grabs, and up for the intellectual challenge. We hold the primary doctrines of Christianity as essential and they can be defended well with Bible, theology and philosophy and at times other disciplines. We trust that God has revealed himself and is guiding his own through the Holy Spirit. Christianity should consist of the most reasonable faith possible.

In a fideistic approach, human beings that insist something must be true will likely find an intellectual way for it to be true, no matter what the evidence. One should make as certain as possible that evidence is guiding one to conclusions concerning truth. Being guided by God in the process of finding the truth is of course of primary importance.

Definitions:

Blackburn writes that fideism takes a pessimistic view concerning the role of reason for achieving divine knowledge. The emphasis is instead on the merits of acts of faith. Blackburn (1996: 139).

Stanford.edu

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

Stanford

'The term itself derives from fides, the Latin word for faith, and can be rendered literally as faith-ism.'

'Fideism” is the name given to that school of thought—to which Tertullian himself is frequently said to have subscribed—which answers that faith is in some sense independent of—if not outright adversarial toward—reason. In contrast to the more rationalistic tradition of natural theology, with its arguments for the existence of God, fideism holds that reason is unnecessary and inappropriate for the exercise and justification of religious belief.'

According to R.K. Johnston, fideism is a term used by Protestant modernists in Paris in the late 19th century. It is often used as a pejorative term to attack various strands of Christianity as forms of irrationalism. Johnston (1999: 415). Fideists, following Kant, who noted that reason cannot prove religious truth is said to base their religious understanding upon religious experience alone. Reason is believed to be incapable of establishing faith's certainty or credibility. Johnston (1999: 415). Grenz, Guretzki and Nordling note that fideism states religious and theological truth must be accepted without the use of reason. Grenz, Guretzki and Nordling (1999: 51). An extreme form of fideism states that reason misleads one in religious understanding. Grenz, Guretzki and Nordling (1999: 51).

Johnston explains that the concept of fideism has little value as most theologians would not deny the use of reason. The term fideism is useful when it describes an excessive emphasis on the subjective aspects of Christianity. Johnston (1999: 415).

BLACKBURN, SIMON (1996) Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy, Oxford, Oxford University Press.

GRENZ, STANLEY J., DAVID GURETZKI and CHERITH FEE NORDLING (1999) Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms, Downers Grove, Ill., InterVarsity Press.

JOHNSTON, R.K.(1996) ‘Fideism’, in Walter A. Elwell (ed.), Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Books.


Tuesday, July 15, 2008 Fideism

43 comments:

  1. Is it reasonable that faith and reason can co-exist with a person
    seeking and discovering God? I believe so.
    -Inquiry Minds Want to Know!-

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  2. I agree, Anon.

    We should look for reason and reasonable faith in the development of worldview.

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  3. "I do claim complete objectivity."

    The "postmodern" man would have a serious problem with this statement! :-)

    I'm not too sure that I can't say the same thing. Subjectivity is a reality that I don't think we can remove ourselves from. The goal would be to try...but I think that's the best we can do.

    Hulk: "Spider Man say help puny Iron Man"

    I love it!! Mrs. Moogly had a chuckle at that line!

    Clint may be the most "quotable" movie star ever. I love his "westerns" (as I mention in my profile).

    Thanks for the plug, Russ.

    GGM

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  4. Interesting...
    My pastor was saying the other day that the reason so many people get offended over theological differences is because they feel that the person is attacking they themselves. It's much easier to discuss theological differences if we can almost remove ourselves from what we believe.

    About people being closed-minded, I think you have to be pretty careful when saying that. Some things are truly Biblical and you should be closed-minded about. Not to say you shouldn't discuss it, but I think it's important to be careful around people who feel convicted about something. It could or could not be a Biblical principle, but hopefully if it weren't Biblical, they could open up just enough to listen to you.

    Which brings me to an interesting discussion one of my sisters and I were having. What is your conscience? Do non-believers have it? Do non-believers have it, but it is renewed when they are born again? Is the conscience in the new believer the Spirit? How does an overly-sensitive conscience fit in? What about a believer who says that the Spirit is leading them to do such-and-such - yet it seems rather unbiblical?

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  5. Sorry, GGM.

    It should read "I do not claim complete objectivity."

    Thanks for the comments.

    Russ:)

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  6. It's much easier to discuss theological differences if we can almost remove ourselves from what we believe.

    Agreed.

    About people being closed-minded, I think you have to be pretty careful when saying that. Some things are truly Biblical and you should be closed-minded about. Not to say you shouldn't discuss it, but I think it's important to be careful around people who feel convicted about something.

    Agreed. But, on the other hand, in recent debating on-line and in person, I have come across some persons who are quite defensive and seem closed-minded on some issues.

    I need to pray to God personally and ask for an open-mind as I cannot change someone else.

    Thanks, Abbey.

    Russ:)

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  7. Hello Russ,

    Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. I truly believe that when Hearing God's Word comes the measure of faith, and with time and experience as we grow in His Word and in the GRACE and KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ our faith can grow as well. But we need to grow in both (Grace and Knowledge) and not one more than the other.

    God Bless you Russ

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  8. Abbey's question about the conscience is interesting. I would say that the conscience is a part of the "God-consciousness" that we all have as "image-bearers". I think it is primarily the conscience that we "supress in our unrighteousness" because the (properly functioning) conscience fights against "the flesh" in directing us to consider our "created nature" as image-bearers.

    This is why I think "the Law" is so powerful--it "pricks our conscience" so as to lead us to consider who we are and who it is that the Law really speaks of (Christ). As Christians, as our minds are renewed by the Spirit, our conscience continues to speak to our nature as "image-bearers"; but now it does not condemn us, but it guides us by the work of the Spirit to consider who we are as Christians, as Children of God, and to BELIEVE what He says about us--that we are "transformed" and "being conformed to the image and likeness of Christ".

    In this way, our conscience is "always clear" yet also, by the work of the Spirit, guiding us in our daily lives to live as Children of God, to "walk worthy of the calling with which we are called", as Paul says. Used by the Spirit, our conscience tells us when our lives are not directed by love; and by the leading of the Spirit, we repent and go on in His power to grow with respect to our relationship with God and others.

    Great topic Abbey! I only had a few minutes to jot down a reply, so if there are some errors in my thinking here just point them out and we'll discuss further.

    Of course, Abbey, these issues may be answered for us as we go through "The Swill" on Wednesday evenings! :-) (Really...I'm looking forward to this study!) :-)

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  9. Thanks, GGM.

    For my PhD, I came up with a theoretical chain for how human beings make choices.

    I speculate that human nature and consciousness (the ability to have self-awareness) does not choose to be as it is, but was created by God, and has been corrupt since the fall of humanity. From consciousness and self-awareness, human beings would develop motives and desires, and eventually make limited free will choices. The primary cause of human acts is determined by God who creates the human nature, and influences human choices. The secondary cause of human acts is the individuals that act according to nature, consciousness, motives, desires, and a limited free will influenced by God. It may be correctly pointed out that what God determines and causes must necessarily (logically must occur) take place. However, I do not think that God coerces or forces individuals to commit actions.

    The regenerated Christian will have the chain influenced by the Holy Sprit in order to obey Christ. But for the sake of discipline, God may allow a believer to disobey at times as well.

    Christians with a closed-mind can be in Biblical and theological error unless there is an open-minded objectivity in order to properly evaluate data with God's guidance.

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  10. That makes sense, Jason, to say that our conscience is a part of being created in God's image. Interesting it came up - this week I had a good discussion about faith and works with my cello teacher. He said, "Now, you can go ahead and kill me for saying this, but I believe that there is the person Jesus - the Son of God - but I also believe that each one of us has this "inner Jesus" that makes us want to do good things." I think he was thinking I was ready to give him the fallen nature lecture because he was really surprised when I said, "Well, yeah. That's just human nature to want to justify ourselves with good deeds. We're all created in the image of God, so we all have this part of us that wants to reach up to our God." I don't think he said a thing for a whole five seconds. He's usually pretty on top of things, so this was a little unusual. He thinks he's a pretty good person who tries really hard to do good for humanity. I was just trying really hard to get him to understand that Christianity isn't about keeping a list of rules.

    So, we could say that an overly-sensitive conscience (as in making lots of rules for yourself) is actually living a faithless life. It's as if Christ dying on the cross wasn't enough to free you. Instead, you repent from not keeping one list of rules and start making a new one to keep. I'm not saying I'm antinomian, but I do think that works without faith is a list of rules we've made for ourselves. Faith that produces works is living into our identity.

    So, Jason, could you say that the Spirit uses our conscience (as in telling us when we aren't living in love), but we can also use our conscience in the wrong way? Or is using our conscience (as in making rules for ourselves and feeling guilty when we don't keep them) actually our fallen nature coming out?

    I got a big kick out of your Swill last night... I almost considered doing it to my copy, but then I heard PC's lecture on not judging a book before you read it. =) I have a really hard time not zoning out while I read it.

    "I speculate that human nature and consciousness (the ability to have self-awareness) does not choose to be as it is, but was created by God, and has been corrupt since the fall of humanity."

    True - I do think that all humans have this awareness of a supreme being, and it reflects in the way they live. All humans have a desire to be creative, to want to follow after God in nature, but there is still a void. And this void is what makes someone want to reach up to God, rather than relying on faith that God has reached down to you. However, I do think that part of human nature is wanting to do things to somehow "buy" their salvation. I don't think that this is part of God's character (rather obviously), but on the contrary, it's part of fallen human's nature.

    "Christians with a closed-mind can be in Biblical and theological error unless there is an open-minded objectivity in order to properly evaluate data with God's guidance."

    Every Christian still is going to read the Bible through their grid of presuppositions, so there really is no way to read the Bible with complete objectivity. However, the Spirit does cause us to grow to be more like Christ and live a life of love, so we still must live by faith.

    Thanks for the good discussion.

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  11. "Christians with a closed-mind can be in Biblical and theological error unless there is an open-minded objectivity in order to properly evaluate data with God's guidance."

    Every Christian still is going to read the Bible through their grid of presuppositions, so there really is no way to read the Bible with complete objectivity. However, the Spirit does cause us to grow to be more like Christ and live a life of love, so we still must live by faith.

    Thanks for the good discussion.


    I agree Abbey. There is no complete objectivity, but it must be sought. Just as we still sin, but yet we must seek not to sin with God's help, the same should be said for intellectual objectivity, as we cannot be completely objective, but we should seek it.

    I state this in order that Christians can have the clearest understanding of Bible, theology, philosophy, science and other issues as well. This assists in our fellowship with God and indeed others.

    I state this in the recent context of dealing with a few atheists on other blogs and their evolutionary views and also one particular person, not a blog link, via email in the context of evaluating the language and meaning of Genesis. This person seemingly believed that anything other than a dispensational view was wrong and therefore I should be disrespected and ignored. The fact is that he could not answer some of the points I made from my reading and he simply ignored these points and went on the attack and now we do not dialogue by his choice.

    This is a form of fideism.

    Thanks very much.

    Russ:)

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  12. Russ,

    Thanks for listing two of my sites in your links! "Jeff Jenkins (funny)" and "Jeff Jenkins" (not funny??...LOL)

    I was thinking, 'Who would be an example of a pure fideist?' At first, I thought of a cult member. But then, I remembered a Charismatic church I used to attend, as well as at least one televangelist, both saying one or more times that we should not listen to man's reasoning, or to logic, but only to God. On the surface, that might sound correct to some, but, other than miracles, God's ways are usually quite logical. Even worse, at least one televangelist has said that a Christian can reach a point (i.e., plateau or level) where they no longer need the Bible, because their connection with God is (supposedly) so powerful that the Bible becomes (basically) obsolete. To me, this would be an extreme example of a fideist.

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  13. This is good reasoning, Jeff.

    I do not use the term pure fideist, but many religious and non-religious persons are fideists when they refuse to deal with points counter to their worldview. If views counter to a worldview are dealt with adequately, there may still be error, but at least reason is used to defend the points of a worldview, and to understand significantly counter points. The counter points must be actually considered.

    When persons resort to ad hominem, and/or intense anger to avoid discussion and considering the views of others, and simply shut down a debate prematurely, these can be signs of an approach that largely desires faith over reason.

    Now, as you know, once points are reasoned out, I am not in favour of a debate going on in circles, and so there is a reasonable point where a debate should be shut down.

    In my debates with you, I have found that we reasonably consider the views of each other and allow our views to be moulded. We can hold some secondary views in tension, and therefore we can largely negate fideism in our discussions.

    Cheers.

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  14. My areas of expertise are the nature of God, theodicy/the problem of evil, free will and determinism, but I can still learn even in these areas that I have been working on in research theses for years.

    I find this interesting:

    "The problem of evil is only a problem if evil is real. To say something is evil, though, is to make a moral judgment. Moral judgments require a moral standard – a moral law – and a moral law requires an author. If the standard is transcendent, then the law-giver must be, too.
    It would be self-defeating to acknowledge shadows, but deny light because light makes shadows possible in the first place. In the same way, it is self-defeating to complain that
    transcendent moral laws have been broken, yet deny that a transcendent moral law-giver (God) exists."

    from:
    http://forums.ocala.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5051038465/m/4431067087

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  15. LOVE that Spider-man/Iron Man/Hulk video! I think I'll post that on my home page website (not my blog site), if you don't mind. Excellent!

    Hulk: "...puppy..." LOL!

    Also, what GGM said:
    Hulk: "Spider Man say help puny Iron Man"
    LOL! Hilarious!

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  16. Thanks, Jeff.

    Most who take a perspective on theodicy take a moral view.

    One explanation for evil:

    I reason that the Biblical God willingly allows and causes all actions and events.

    God's motives are pure.

    Evil and sin are not good in themselves.

    God does not sin and sin would be an illogical violation of his nature.

    God uses evil for the greater good.

    Satan and his demons did evil by working toward the death of Christ. The Romans and Jews (in power at that time!) sinned as the Romans executed Christ and the Jews supported this action.

    This lead to the atoning and resurrection work of Christ and salvation for followers.

    Christ as God will rule a culminated Kingdom.

    The cartoon is very good!

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  17. "So, we could say that an overly-sensitive conscience (as in making lots of rules for yourself) is actually living a faithless life. It's as if Christ dying on the cross wasn't enough to free you."

    Very well put, Abbey. Since we are not yet perfected, the "flesh" still has its hooks in us, so-to-speak; so yes, the conscience is primarily directed by the Spirit (for the Christian), but the "flesh" can still steer the conscience in an ungodly way--even as you say, to be "overly sensitive". It's in this way, as you suggest, that we so easily fall back into "rule-keeping" for the sake of "clearing our conscience" before God. The Spirit certainly directs our conscience to know when we are not "being who we are" as New Creations in Christ (not loving, not walking worthy of the calling with which we've been called, etc.); but our "fallen nature" still operates through our "flesh" as well to keep us bound by "law" and self-righteousness.

    Your interaction with your cello teacher sounds like it is (or can be) very productive--to you both. All you can do is to continue to be faithful as a Child of God. You are planting seeds...now God is the One who is responsible for causing the growth--which He will do at His pleasure. I'm encouraged by you and your whole family as you witness to those who God has placed around you.

    Yeah...the "Swill"...I mean, "The Shack" is not the most well-written fiction book I've ever read (even in "Christianity"), but the topic and situation is fairly intersting to me. I haven't yet decided whether or not I like the book; but when the introduction to God the Father is as a "large Black Woman"...well...it doesn't give me much confidence! :-)

    But, like PC said, we should read it for what the author intended and then make our decisions about it. I know it is supposed to be "allegorical" or "metaphorical", so there is some liberty he can take in certain areas. I guess we'll just have to see what his overall theological message is before we decide to burn it--or in your case, use it for gerbil droppings.

    PC gives the impression that it will be useful for us, so I guess we can give him the benefit of the doubt, right? :-) If it help increase our faith and our love for our God, then I guess it will be good.

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  18. Thanks Russ.
    Been away for a few days this week. Have had a bad infection and laying low.
    Will read article and post some comments. Saw a good book advertised here in a catalogue with Theodicy as one of the main subjects, might order it and learn some more.

    Russell.

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  19. Friday funnies:

    I do not know if this is a true story:

    klvi

    (This is a true account recorded in the Police Log of Sarasota, Florida.) An elderly Florida lady did her shopping and, upon returning to her car, found four males in the act of leaving with her vehicle. She dropped her shopping bags and drew her handgun, proceeding to scream at the top of her lungs, "I have a gun, and I know how to use it! Get out of the car!" The four men didn't wait for a second threat. They got out and ran like mad. The lady, somewhat shaken, then proceeded to load her shopping bags into the back of the car and got into the driver's seat. She was so shaken that she could not get her key into the ignition. She tried and tried, and then she realized why,. it was for the same reason she had wondered why there was a football, a Frisbee and two 12 packs of beer in the front seat. A few minutes later, she found her own car parked four or five spaces farther down. She loaded her bags into the car and drove to the police station to report her mistake. The sergeant to whom she told the story couldn't stop laughing. He pointed to the other end of the counter, where four pale men were reporting a car jacking by a mad, elderly woman described as white, less than five feet tall, glasses, curly white hair, and carrying a large handgun. No charges were filed. Moral of the story? If you're going to have a Senior Moment, make it memorable.

    Christian Bear

    The Christian Bear
    There was a man who one day didnt feel like going to church so he decided to go hunting instead.

    He was out in the bush when he was aproched from behind by a bear. He dropped his gun by accident but didnt bother to pick it up.

    He ran for his life. Weaving in and out the trees with the bear on his trail. Curving around a tree he triped over its root.

    He looked up and the bear looked down. The bear was about to strike at him. He put his hands together and prayed:

    "Dear lord, Please let this bear be a christian."

    the bear sat down on its bum and held the mans hands, closed his eyes and said: "Dear lord, Thankyou for the food that i am about to recieve"


    Religious Horse (perhaps charismatic;))

    The religious Horse
    Once a man bought a horse. You had to say ?hallelujah? to make it go and ?amen? to make it stop.

    The man was riding his horse one day but then he realized he was riding to an edge of a cliff.

    He was so scared he forgot how to make the horse stop. He thought this was the end of his life and he started praying, ending the prayer by saying ?amen?.

    The horse suddenly stopped at the edge of the cliff. 'hallelujah' said the man with a sigh of relief and off went the horse?

    (Thanks Sara)


    Nasty Bug

    Nasty Bug
    Every night, Harold would go down to the liquor store, get a six pack, bring it home, and drink it while he watched TV. One night, as he finished his last beer, the doorbell rang. He stumbled to the door and found a six-foot cockroach standing there. The bug grabbed him by the collar and threw him across the room, and left.

    The next night, after he finished his 3th beer, the doorbell rang.

    He walked slowly to the door and found the same six-foot cockroach standing there. The big bug punched him in the stomach, then left.

    The next night, after he finished his 1st beer, the doorbell rang again. The same six-foot cockroach was standing there. This time he was kneed in the groin and hit behind the ear as he doubled over in pain. Then the big bug left.

    The fourth night Harold didn't drink at all. The doorbell rang. The cockroach was standing there. The bug beat the snot out of Harold and left him in a heap on the living room floor.

    The following day, Harold went to see his doctor. He explained events of the preceding four nights. "

    " What can I do? " he pleaded.

    " Not much " he doctor replied. " There's just a nasty bug going around."


    Smart Blonde

    The Smart Blonde
    A blonde woman boards an airplane. She is extremely exhausted and just wants to take a nap. She finally finds her seat and sits down next to a very curious young man.

    He wants to test the whole dub blonde thing and possibly make some money out of it. "Hey, wanna play a game?" he asks her. "No thank you, i just want to take a nap." "Please, its really easy, all you have to do is answer the questions that i ask you. If you don't know the answer, then you give me five dollars, and if I don't know the answer to your question, then Ill give you five dollars."

    "I really don't want to do this. I just want to take a nap."

    "Oh but PLEASE pretty please. Okay, how about if I don't know the answer to your question, I'll give you five hundred dollars." The blonde woman became interested and decided to play the game.

    "Okay. How many moons does jupiter have?" the young man asked. The woman reached into her purse and took out a five dollar bill. "What goes up the mountain with three legs and comes back down with four?".

    The young man, determined not to lose, gets out his laptop and searches all over the internet for an answered. Flustered and confused, the young man hand the blonde five hundred dollars.

    After a few hours, the young man was itching to know the answer to the question."What was the answer to the riddle?" the blonde woman reached into her purse and handed the young man a five dollar bill.

    (Thanks Phoebe)


    Happy Weekend.:)

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  20. Hi Russ, me again.
    Just attended our state AOG conference. Great time to catch up with friends and colleagues who I have not seen for a while.

    Preachers where good as we had our local ones speak for a change rather than the big import from somewhere else which I really liked for a change.

    One speaker who will remain nameless spoke on "Faith the Currency of Heaven", his title not mine. It was not one of my favourites I have to say. It happens often when people are successful and talk about faith. They use their success to bolster their theology even if it's totally off. I would be interested to hear some of your personal views on "kingdom now theology." I know you probably have better things to do but it might just have a link with Fideism and even Theodicy, because I find myself saying, Lord why do you allow it to happen?

    Catch you soon.
    Russell.

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  21. Russ,

    That story about the elderly woman was absolutely hilarious! I just got off the phone with my mom, and I even read it to her. She was cracking up like crazy. Love it!

    I usually don't like blonde jokes, but that one of yours is funny!

    The one about the Christian bear, I used to tell to people sometimes.

    I can't believe you listed the one about the religious horse! That used to be my favorite one to tell people! Of course, my version was longer and more detailed. That was the joke I shared in front of a large number of people when I made my Sonshine Cursillo weekend.

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  22. Thanks, Jeff.

    My Mom sent me an email newspaper clip of the elderly woman story. I found another copy and pasted it.

    As far as blonde jokes are concerned, I can understand the dumb blonde movement/act in regard to Marilyn Monroe and like in the L.A./Hollywood scene. However, in reality I doubt there is anything genetically about blondes that makes them dumb or dumber than brunettes or redheads.

    I have come across quite a few intelligent blondes.

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  23. Russ,

    I think I'm going to have to find someone with a camera and have a new photo taken for my image. So far, you have told me that, looking at my photo, you thought I was black, and a couple days ago this guy on Facebook, when I was commenting on an image of the villain "Sylar" in the TV series "Heroes," told me that my photo was creeping him out more than Sylar did, and that I need to get a new camera, because my photo just looked scary.

    My response to him was that he has good reason to be scared, because I'm more dangerous than Sylar. He hasn't made fun of me since.

    I guess getting so much practice in debates has helped out after all.

    LOL!

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  24. Jeff,

    My figurative motto:

    Carry a Bible (commentaries, theology, philosophy, and even science texts) in one hand, and a club in the other.

    But, we are not to return evil for evil.

    Russ;)

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  25. Hi again, Russell.

    I have heard of Kingdom Now theology, but have not read up on it much. Russell, please feel free to share what you have learned about the movement.

    Christ and his ministry established the Kingdom in initial stages, but it will not be culminated until his Second Coming.

    On a somewhat related issue:

    I do not buy into postmillenialism, that the Kingdom of God was arriving through the efforts of Christians that had succeeded in the past. Clouse (1999: 717). Somewhat surprising to me is that Clouse mentions that Daniel Whitby convinced Jonathan Edwards to become a postmillennialist. Clouse (1999: 717).

    I reason things likely will over time become worse for the Church and that the millennium (plain literal or not, and I lean toward a plain literal view at this time) will take place after the Second Coming of Christ.

    CLOUSE, R.G.. (1996) 'Millennium, Views of the', in Walter A. Elwell (ed.), Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Books.

    Dominion

    Dominion Theology/Kingdom Now/Reconstructionism
    Blessing or Curse?*
    - There is a movement about that is casting a long shadow for its size. It is known as Reconstructionism, Kingdom Now theology, Theonomy, and/or Dominion theology, and it is a curious blend of Reformed/Calvinist theology and Charismatic influence. While there are relatively few who would call themselves reconstructionists, a number of the movement's ideas have infiltrated the thinking and actions of many professing believers, often without them knowing it. The movement is led by such theologians as Rousas J. Rushdoony; Gary North; Ray Sutton; Greg Bahnsen (deceased); David Chilton, and by Charismatic leaders such as Earl Paulk. But their ideas are often reflected by non-reconstructionists such as Pat Robertson, D. James Kennedy, John Whitehead, Franky Schaeffer, and Jerry Falwell. [In spite of the fact that many Dominionists-Reconstructionists-Theonomists are hyper-Calvinists, yet at the same time they write and speak as if they believe that they must help God get things under control down here on earth, so that the kingdom (their version of it) can be set up in order that the King Himself can reign properly (through them, of course!).]

    - Dominion theology (the belief-system behind the Reconstructionist movement) teaches that through the coming of Christ the believer has dominion over every area of life. We are now in the Kingdom of God (note the similar view of the Kingdom that the Vineyard movement takes, as well as the plethora of Christian songs being written implying that we are in the Kingdom at the present time), and as a result, we should be reigning with Christ over the earth (as Rev. 5:10 says). The question is when will we reign. If the Kingdom is on earth now, then we should have dominion now, so say the Dominionists. Many of us non-reconstructionists proclaim this same thought when we sing the popular Charismatic song "Majesty" (written by hyper-charismatic Jack Hayford), which invites us to "Come glorify Christ Jesus, the King" -- after all, "Kingdom authority flows from His throne unto His own." With this authority from the King, we are to reclaim the earth for Christ, not just spiritually, but socially, economically (it is no accident that one of the Reconstructionists' organizations is called "The Institute for Christian Economics"), and politically. The dominion of the earth is accomplished not only through prayer and evangelism, but through political process and social reformation. [The Dominion/Reconstructionist organization Coalition on Revival (COR) was established for this purpose.] Christ will not (and cannot) return to earth until the church has accomplished this task, so say the dominionists.

    - Dominion theology is predicated upon three basic beliefs:

    (a) Satan usurped man's dominion over the earth through the temptation of Adam and Eve;
    (b) The Church is God's instrument to take dominion back from Satan; and
    (c) Jesus cannot or will not return until the Church has taken dominion by gaining control of the earth's governmental and social institutions.

    More specifically, what does Dominion Theology (DT) teach? Here are the highlights:

    (a) The Old Testament (OT) Law is our rule of life for today. Although DT teaches that keeping of the Law is not a condition for salvation, it is a condition for sanctification. (However, some of the COR's official statements appear to specifically condition salvation upon OT Law-keeping!);

    (b) In addition, the OT Law is to govern over society as well. Since we are called to subdue the earth (Gen. 1:28), DT teaches that God's Law should rule (or dominate) all aspects of society. This view is known as Theonomy (or God's law), and is described by Greg Bahnsen as: "The Christian is obligated to keep the whole law of God as a pattern for sanctification and that this law is to be enforced by the civil magistrate" (Theonomy, p. 34). This would mean that Christians would be obligated to keep the whole OT Law except in a case in which the New Testament (NT) explicitly cancels a command, such as the sacrificial system;

    (c) A central piece of DT is its belief in covenant theology. As a result, it makes no distinction between the church and Israel (i.e., the church has become "spiritual Israel"). However, DT goes beyond traditional covenant theology and teaches that the church is to be governed by the same laws, is subject to the same curses, and is promised the same blessings as Israel;

    (d) DT teaches a high level of social and political activism. If the Kingdom of God is to gradually take dominion over the earth, it only makes sense that Christians should be attempting to change society through the changing of laws and through social action;

    (e) Followers of DT, like many charismatics, especially the Latter Rain Movement, look for a great end time revival in which the masses will turn to Christ. As a result, DT does not believe in the rapture of the church. According to DT, the world should be, and is becoming, a better place through the efforts of Christians (cf. 2 Thes. 2:1-12);

    (f) As with many others who follow the teachings of George Ladd, DT believes that we are in the Kingdom age, but the Kingdom in another sense is yet to come. We are in the Kingdom, and have Kingdom authority, but on the other hand, we are ushering in the Kingdom through our efforts. "The Kingdom is now, but not yet," is a popular DT slogan;

    (g) DT is postmillennial in its eschatology. It is believed that as a result of the reconstruction of society by Biblical principals, that the final aspect of the Kingdom of God will be established on earth. Christ cannot return until a certain amount of dominion is achieved by the church. It is believed that the curse will slowly be removed as the world is won over. Even disease and death will be all but eliminated before Christ returns to the earth;

    (h) DT is preterist in its interpretation of prophecy. This means that they teach that virtually all prophecies which most Christians believe are still future, have in fact been fulfilled already, mainly between the years A.D. 30 and 70. In David Chilton's book, Days of Vengeance, he says that the book of Revelation, "is not about the Second Coming of Christ. It is about the destruction of Israel and Christ's victory over His enemies [during the first century]" (p. 43); and

    (i) DT uses an allegorical hermeneutic, especially in reference to prophecy. So we find that the Great Tribulation took place at the fall of Israel in A.D. 70; the Antichrist refers to the apostasy of the Church prior to the fall of Jerusalem; the Beast of Revelation was Nero and the Roman Empire, etc.;

    - One of the most important distinctives of DT is its belief in Theonomy. DT teaches that Christians are under the Law as a way of life, and are obligated to ultimately bring the world under that Law. This concept is based on several passages. First, Gen. 1:28 commands Adam to subdue the earth. Adam lost his ability to do so to Satan as a result of sin. The church should now be in the process of reclaiming from the devil what Adam lost. (You will note a hint of the Spiritual Warfare movement here.) Secondly, the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19-20) commands the followers of Christ to disciple all the nations, which we are told, goes beyond personal salvation and sanctification to the reformation of society;

    Matt. 5:17-19 is the passage upon which the system hinges. DT claims that the word "fulfill" actually means "confirm." Thus, Christ did not in any sense fulfill, or complete, or do away with the Law, rather he confirmed it as our rule of life today. The normal and best translation of plerosai is "fulfill" not "confirm." Besides this, however, we have the weight of the NT teaching concerning the Law. The epistles clearly teach that believers are no longer under the Law of Moses (Rom. 6:14; 7:6; 8:2-4; Gal. 3:24,25; 5:18), having been set free from that bondage to serve under grace and the law of Christ (Gal. 6:2);

    And besides, if the Christian is still under Law, why do we not keep the OT ceremonial laws? DT's answer is that the Law was divided into three sections: civil, moral, and ceremonial. The ceremonial law, it is claimed, has been fulfilled by Christ and is no longer incumbent upon the believer, but not so the moral and civil parts of the law. Therefore, we are to live under the moral law and seek to establish, in our society, the civil system of OT Israel. The problem with this view is that nowhere in the Bible is the Law broken into these three sections; this is something invented by men. Whenever the Law is mentioned, the Scriptures are speaking of the whole Law as a unit. The Jews were as obligated to keep the sacrificial system and commandments concerning food and dress (ceremonial law) as they were the Ten Commandments (moral law). If the NT says that Christ fulfilled the Law, and that as Christians we are no longer under the Law, it means the whole Law. Church age saints are no longer obligated to any aspect of the OT Law. No one has the right to arbitrarily claim that we have been set free from some of the Law (the parts we don't like), but that the rest of the Law is obligatory. Either the believer has been released from the whole Law (Rom. 7:4,6) or none of it. [As Thomas Ice reminds us, "The Law of Moses was given to a specific people (Israel), to be followed in a specific location (the land of Israel), to deal with their specific situation. Therefore, the Law cannot simply be obeyed today by the Church, as was expected of Israel when it was given to that nation" (Biblical Perspectives, Vol. II, No. 6). On the positive side, Ice comments, "Paul teaches in Galatians 3 and 4 that Christ has set us free from the bondage of the Law, not so that we can be lawless as the Reconstructionists insist, instead, so that we can walk in the newness of the motivation of the Holy Spirit" (Ibid., p. 2).]

    - There are many negative effects that the teachings of DT are having on evangelical Christianity today. Four of these would be:

    (a) Reconstructionists teach that the mission of the church goes beyond the spiritual transformation of individuals, to a mandate to change society, a "moral patriotism," if you will, in opposition to secular humanism. For Christ to be pleased with Christians, thereby, they must become political and social activists. We must change the laws of the land, gear up to elect Christians to office, and generally seek to take dominion over our world and bring it under the Law of Moses. We see the influence of this thinking even in those who may know little about DT -- James Dobson, Larry Burkett, the Christian Coalition, Pat Robertson, Promise Keepers, Charles Colson and the Evangelicals and Catholics Together document (ECT), and Operation Rescue, are but a few of the evidences that reconstructionist thinking is beginning to dominate the so-called evangelical world;

    (b) Motivation for godly living, based upon the blessed hope -- the return of Christ (Titus 2:13) -- is replaced with the task of restructuring society. This cultural mandate to restructure/restore society is a task that may take thousands of years, even by the DT's own admission (approximately 36,000 years, according to David Chilton);

    (c) If we are in the Kingdom of God now, then the Charismatics are correct to teach that health and prosperity is the right of every believer today. This is why "Reconstruction" Calvinists and "Kingdom Now" Charismatics have formed at least a loose unity -- they both have the same world view. They are not looking for Christ to return and set up His Kingdom; they are attempting to set it up for Him; and

    (d) A theological anti-Semitism exists in the Dominionist plan to replace of Old Testament Israel with the Church, often called the "New Israel" (i.e., "replacement theology" -- the church replaces the Jews as the new or true Israel, and Israel has no future as a distinct nation within God's plan). They believe that Israel does not have a future different from any other nation. Historically, replacement theology has been the theological foundation upon which anti-Semitism has been built within the confines of professing Christianity. While reconstructionists do believe that the individual Jews will be converted to Christ in mass in the future, almost none of them believe that national Israel has a future, and thus, the Church has completely taken over the promises of national Israel. (Reconstructionist David Chilton said that "ethnic Israel was excommunicated for its apostasy and will never again be God's Kingdom. ... the Bible does not tell of any future plan for Israel as a special nation." Reconstructionists believe that the Church is now that new nation, which is why Christ destroyed the Jewish state. Reconstructionists DeMar and Leithart have said, "In destroying Israel, Christ transferred the blessings of the kingdom from Israel to a new people, the church."

    * Unless otherwise indicated, some of the material in this and companion reports has been excerpted and/or adapted from three sources: (1) "Dominion Theology," Pastor Gary E. Gilley, Southern View Chapel, January, 1996; (2) Dominion Theology: Blessing or Curse?, by Thomas Ice and H. Wayne House; and (3) Vengeance Is Ours: The Church in Dominion, by Albert James Dager.

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  26. I'm sure he didn't realize that I was laughing the whole time I was writing that response.

    I was constantly made fun of when I was young, so I am sensitive to that, but I have more confidence now, and I try not to use name-calling as a tactic. After getting into martial arts, I learned how to defend myself physically, but I still had never learned how to defend myself verbally. I used to be extremely shy, even paranoid of people, and I could never think of what to say at the time, so I would just be quiet and let them harass me and make fun of me, and, if it continued long enough, it would build up and build up, and eventually blow up like a volcano, and then I would get violent. Therefore, in more recent years, I have been trying to learn to deal with conflict immediately, instead of letting it build up inside, and the Lord has been helping me a lot in slowly learning how to do this. I still have not learned how to do it perfectly, but at least I'm learning, little by little.

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  27. Jeff,

    Blogging is a good opportunity for you to minister to others and build personal confidence which you can take to 'on the street' ministry.

    Thank you, thank you very much.

    Russ:)

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  28. Thanks, Russ.

    Your 'Dominion Theology' post is very helpful, as I know and have come across quite a few (including my family) who have been heavily influenced by it.

    I copied it to Word, but then Word crashed, so now I copied it to Notepad for future reference. I also plan to email it out. Christians need to be informed of true doctrine.

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  29. Cheers, Jeff.

    There is some useful theological material on the web. I used some of it for my PhD.

    Russ:)

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  30. I just posted this on Mr. Googly's blog:

    The Lennon song 'Give Peace a chance' is mildly entertaining although coming from a misdirected understanding of peace. When I was a little kid in the 1970s my Dad regularly warned me about the greaseballs and hippies.

    The leader of our federal NDP party (socialist) acts as if we could just sit around a table there would always be peace with our neighbours in other lands.

    If the NDP stay as left as present and ever run Canada federally, we will have even less of a military. I am not against negotiation, but favour a larger Canadian military and more freedom from American foreign policy.

    The same leader linked evil and crime with poverty, which is somewhat true. But, even poor children can be brought up with some significant sense of morality if the parents teach, live and instill it. There are many reasons for poverty, I deduce. One reason there is poverty is because some wealthy persons abuse the poor, and also because some persons spend too much money on drugs and alcohol and do not work hard and smart enough. There is also the breakdown of the family unit which leads to poverty. There is also illness.

    A corrupt human nature is at the root of evil and crime in our society. Poverty is a result of corruption and not primarily the cause of it.

    The corrupt human nature must be dealt with and too many radical liberals would like to accommodate it in too many ways.

    True peace requires the ending of the problem of evil and citizens peacefully in love being ruled by and with God. I do not favour theocracy, but look forward to the Biblical culminated Kingdom.

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  31. "We are now in the Kingdom of God (note the similar view of the Kingdom that the Vineyard movement takes, as well as the plethora of Christian songs being written implying that we are in the Kingdom at the present time),"

    Just as a reminder...holding to the "Kingdom now" idea does not make one an adherent to "Dominion Theology" (or "vinyard" movements).

    While I am definitely not a "Theonomist" or "Reconstructionist", I do believe that the Kingdom of God is a present reality--see my Sermon on the Mount series (my own early personal writings as well as the links to our Pastor's PDF files).

    When Jesus came, He came as the King ushering in the Promised Kingdom. Those who have been "born again" and are joined to Him by faith are "present" recipients of and citizens of the Kingdom. Of course, this Kingdom is "spiritual" in its present state, but it is the Kingdom that is growing as the Gospel is preached.

    The Kingdom is "at hand" (a present reality) because the King has come and ushered it in in fulfillment of the promise all throughout the OT (as far back as Gen.3:15, at least). The only thing that awaits is the "consummation" of the Kingdom at the return of the King (Christ) when the entire created order will know its own redemption. I believe that there are two aspects to the Kingdom: the present (spiritual) reality that implicates human beings, and the final (physical or consummated) reality which implicates the entire created order in the shalomic state of shabbat with the "new heavens and new earth" (the redeemed creation).

    You may have mentioned this in your post and I simply missed it; but I just wanted to make sure the distinction is made. Too often labels can be all-encompassing in people's minds without their understanding of certain distinctions.

    "In destroying Israel, Christ transferred the blessings of the kingdom from Israel to a new people, the church."


    This is another idea that can (falsely) be attributed to those of us who hold to the fulfillment of all things in Christ. I believe that the Bible teaches that "Israel" was prophetic such that with the coming of the True Israel (Christ), the physical, ethnic nation of Israel is not distinct as "the people of God" anymore. Now, in Christ, the "people of God" are comprised of ALL people from "every tribe, tongue and nation" who are joined to Him (who is the True Israel). The OT (specifically Isaiah) speaks of the Servant of God (the Messiah, the Branch, the Prophet, etc.) as "ISRAEL" who will "deliver" God's people in fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise. Christ is God's (true) Beloved Son who is "the covenant of the peoples" (i.e. the New Covenant). Because Israel failed to be God's "covenant son" in fulfilling the Abrahamic promise to be a blessing to all nations of the earth, a "new" Israel was necessary (which is to say the "Israel" that the nation only prophesied of--the true "covenant Son" who fulfills all of God's promises--2Cor. 1:20). The Abrahamic covenant, therefore, as with every promise of God, is only "yes" in Christ--He is the fulfillment of all things, including "Israel". Christ is the means of "blessing" that fulfills the Abrahamic covenant; and it can be so only because He was the "Seed" in the mind of God when He instituted the Covenant (Galations 3ff--really the whole book, plus Romans, etc.).

    I don't say all of this to re-engage debate about "true" and "false" Israel (Jeff :-) I say all of this (which I know, some of you have heard before) as a reminder that there are many, many people who hold to a kind of "fulfillment theology" who have no connection with "Reconstructionism" or "DT". They may use SIMILAR ideas and phrases, but not necessarily mean the same things.

    I've posted some things about this before and I may do so again. I just don't want to be lumped into "Dominion Theology" simply because I believe the Kingdom is "present" and because I believe Israel has found its fulfillment in Christ such that the "people of God" constitute ALL those who are joined to Him.

    I've written this rather quickly, so if there are spelling mistakes or if I've not been as clear as I could have been...well...sorry about that. I can clarify if anyone would like me to; or you can see my stuff on Israel at shalomistheword.

    I'm on my way to pick up a new refridgerator for Mrs. Moogly, so I had to be quick. I don't know why it is, but it seems like every time I have something to add over here at Russ' or at Jeff's site on a Saturday morning, I end up getting an impatient look and some toe tapping from accross the room from you-know-who :-)

    I'm coming honey...!

    GGM

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  32. The leader of our federal NDP party (socialist) acts as if we could just sit around a table there would always be peace with our neighbours in other lands.

    After watching videos of Hamas TV and children's shows that teach the children to spill their blood over the land in order to gain back their 'rightful land,' and which teaches them to kill Jews and to be suicide bombers; as well as kids singing songs and reciting poems and calling in live, telling about how they want to be a suicide bomber; after seeing and hearing all this, the idea that we can just sit around a table and negotiate peace seems very naive to me. There is an agenda to wipe out all Jews, and to either destroy the U.S., Britain, and the West, or to force them all to become Muslims. This is something which is taught daily on satellite TV, in the news (in those countries), and on children's TV shows which feature a Mickey Mouse character. No, not every single Muslim is a terrorist, and I believe that there are some Muslims who honestly do want peace. However, in Sharia countries, where Islam is the law, this is the agenda which is taught through Nazi-like propaganda, and children are taught to have as a major goal in their life to be a suicide bomber, or to die for the sake of jihad.

    I tend to think that the West is largely blind and deaf to this reality, partly because they don't want it to be true. They want things like 9/11 to be a one-time past event. Yet, Islamic nations see all the terrorist acts that occur on a regular basis all over the world as different fronts of the same war.

    The Christian should not be in fear of this, but should be aware of the reality, and see it as impetus and motivation to take the gospel to Muslims.

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  33. Russ,

    I emailed your 'Dominion Theology' article out, and one friend wrote back:

    "AAACK! I read through half of this and my eyes glazed over. Man, talk about being full of oneself! Somebody out there thinks they have it all figured out and all we have to do is name, claim and take over? Man - no! Aughhh! These folks have to get the understanding that Jesus has to take over me, you, them, us! That starts with eradicating our own sin and getting humble before God and repenting - obviously somebody has the picture they have already arrived. I guess I'm too much damaged goods to be of any use to God since I don't have any plans to build my own kingdom in his name or some movement. Oh well!"

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  34. Hi Jason,

    Just as a reminder...holding to the "Kingdom now" idea does not make one an adherent to "Dominion Theology" (or "vinyard" movements).

    I can see your point, but I think the way Russell presented it, it likely was associated with Dominion Theology and/or like. He emailed me on this issue as well.

    The Kingdom is "at hand" (a present reality) because the King has come and ushered it in fulfillment of the promise all throughout the OT (as far back as Gen.3:15, at least). The only thing that awaits is the "consummation" of the Kingdom at the return of the King (Christ) when the entire created order will know its own redemption.?

    This was taught at the Christian institutions I attended as well.

    You may have mentioned this in your post and I simply missed it; but I just wanted to make sure the distinction is made. Too often labels can be all-encompassing in people's minds without their understanding of certain distinctions.

    Yes I noted:

    Christ and his ministry established the Kingdom in initial stages, but it will not be culminated until his Second Coming.

    Because Israel failed to be God's "covenant son" in fulfilling the Abrahamic promise to be a blessing to all nations of the earth, a "new" Israel was necessary (which is to say the "Israel" that the nation only prophesied of--the true "covenant Son" who fulfills all of God's promises--2Cor. 1:20).

    But, of course this was part of God's sovereign plan all along.

    Listen to the Mrs!

    Thanks my friend!

    Russ

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  35. Jason and Jeff,

    Please note, I realize there is quite possibly a plain literal 1000 year millennium that will take place after the Second Coming and before the culmination of the Kingdom of God as in new/restored creation, but in general terms the Kingdom of God is culminated after the Second Coming of Christ. Christ will rule during and after the millennium.

    Thanks, Jeff.

    In regard to the second comment from your mail out, I think it is dangerous to be too dogmatic in regard to eschatology. Eschatology is however, good learning.

    In regard to the first comment, I reason not only that Islamic terrorism is a threat to the West but so are some nation states potentially.

    Wow, we have passed the satire and theology article in number of comments. That is rare!

    Thanks,

    Russ

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  36. Thanks for visiting my blog and commenting faithfully.

    I'm not sure what "you sound professional" means, but it sounded like a compliment... so thanks! :)

    I enjoyed the videos - saw them via google reader... I'll try to do a better job commenting, because it is a great way to introduce each other's readers to one another.

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  37. I think it is dangerous to be too dogmatic in regard to eschatology.

    I agree.

    In regard to the first comment, I reason not only that Islamic terrorism is a threat to the West but so are some nation states potentially.

    From watching part of the DVD "Obsession" (www.obsessionthemovie.com), I have learned that Muslim extremists are even dangerous to other Muslims, as various factions of Islam fight against each other and kill each other.

    Regarding Kingdom Now and/or Dominion Theology, there is a 'infomercial' about a ministry that works to move Jews from other parts of the world to Israel, and asks for donations. I've always had doubts about such an idea, because it seems they are moving them into a war zone. But now, after reading what you presented regarding Dominion Theology, I'm also wondering if they are actually trying to help force the return of Christ, by returning Jews to Jerusalem. I'm not sure whether that is why they are doing it or not, but it seems to be a possibility.

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  38. That is interesting and thoughtful speculation, Jeff.

    Cheers.

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  39. Hi Russ. Seems like I generated a bit of conversation on the subject of Kingdom Now. The problem might be in giving it a name and maybe it does not have a name but if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck it probably is a duck. These guys probably don't even know that they are quacking like a duck. For example. The guy I heard speak the other week was all about "us" creating the atmosphere down here so that when people come into Church they will think it's actually God's Kingdom where everyone is happy, positive, in perfect unity, looking good so that when the people who don't have what they have will see it and want it. And as for criticism, well that's disunity and it's definitely not very spiritual.

    It worries me that the emphasis is on stuff and how good we do things. Doing good things then gets the results so the good things we do must be right. It's always been my understanding that it's not me but Him.

    My experience as a pastor of over 20 years is that God takes broken people and fixes them up so the Church is going to be full of people with problems. For example, one day I had a visiting speaker come to Hope Centre. The first guy he met just outside the foyer was someone who has three conversations at a time. The next guy was totally blind and the next guy he met has had 9 operations on his head and face to remove various tumours. Not a pretty welcome to the Church. But all these people find love, acceptance and forgiveness in the Church. Maybe it's because they feel at home amongst other people who share their imperfection. Anyways mate just some personal observations. Have not got onto the money thing. I have actually lost a few friends on this issue because I cannot believe for millions.

    Ah well. God bless them I say. Catch you soon mate. Russell.

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  40. My guess is that you are a fine example of a loving and friendly pastor.

    Get well, Russell.

    Cheers.

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