Points of agreement on Hell

Edinburgh, 1995: Colourized (More like it actually was)

Points of agreement on Hell 

Points of agreement on Hell (a)

I admit that I am not in the spiritual and academic position to verify any person's Heaven or Hell account for absolute truthfulness. As it is not a canonized story from the New Testament, reasoned to be the inspired, inherent, word of God, an account could be non-fiction reality, fiction or a dream. An account can be a very tricky proposition. I therefore, do not endorse this video or the ministry. I do not know this man and I have only listened to two presentations. I do not have an exhaustive knowledge of the theology of his ministry.

Heaven and Hell stories often contradict the New Testament and biblical theology and would have me doubt them as authentic. However, this presentation, whether non-fiction reality, fiction or dream, based on bible and theology has some significant concepts in common with my own 'Hell theory' and Hell theology. To be clear, I do reason a person with significant theological knowledge could arrive with reasonably biblical conclusions without a 'Hell' visit.

As stated, I viewed two presentations from this speaker:

Points of agreement on Hell (b)

The Trinity

The Biblical God is demonstrated as triune. The Trinity. 

Matthew 28-19-20, a classic key, New Testament of the triune God.

English Standard Version (ESV)

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” 

Millard Erickson in 'Christian Theology' expresses a Biblical, orthodox (not meaning Orthodox Church here) position on the Trinity via the Council of Constantinople (381). Erickson (1994: 335). A formula ὑποστάσεις was expressed, which expressed three separate persons that exist simultaneously in three modes of being or hypostases. Erickson (1994: 335). The idea being the Godhead is undivided in essential nature, in divided persons. Erickson (1994: 335).

Greek scholar Walter Bauer defines 'Hupostasis' the original word: ὑπόστασις, εως, ἡit from the Greek as substantial nature, essence, actual being, reality. In the context of Hebrews 1: 3 the Son of God is the exact representation of God’s real being. (847).

God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, as three distinctions within the Godhead, with one essential nature, are in sovereign control of Hades. According to the New Testament, the atoning and resurrection work of Jesus Christ, applied to those in Jesus Christ, is the only means of human salvation. Notably, John 1, and John 14, as key examples.

Degrees of literalness

The Scripture and the book of Revelation, describes Hades and Hell with degrees of literalness, that could often be described as figurative literal language. Mounce notes is his Revelation commentary that the eschatological presentation in the Revelation, text, offers degrees of literalness. Mounce reasons that most scholars allow for varying levels of literal interpretation in regard to the new creation. (369). Mounce further demonstrates the rather figurative literal (not mythological, non-fictional, my add) nature of this eschatological language in Revelation. The reference to 'no longer any sea' (New American Standard Bible, my add) is likely a reference to a dread of the sea by many ancient cultures. The sea was viewed as an evil. To state that through the metaphorical use of 'sea' that evil will no longer exist in the new order, seems far more intellectually palatable than attempting to explain the lack of major water bodies in a new creation within an everlastingly liveable (livable) universe for human beings. 

Sinful human nature

The sinful human nature (via the fall) is abundantly exposed. (Romans, Revelation, as examples).

People in Hades might become progressively more evil, being further past the time of common grace when he/she was alive on earth and experienced much of God's goodness. I opine, not dogmatically, that all citizens in hell may become increasingly more insane. Hades seems to be about continually experiencing one's own embraced sinful nature and sinful thoughts, acts and actions. This serves as punishment. (The Gospels, Luke 16, Revelation as examples).

There is an aspect of these citizens of earth knowing there is a God (Romans 1), without embracing knowledge of God by grace through personal, trusting faith; instead embracing a rejection of God. There is a rejection of the triune God. There is a rejection of Jesus Christ and the gospel. As one of my previous pastors stated: There is a God, and it is not you. God in a sense, is demonstrating love to humanity that rejects him, by allowing citizens of Hades to live forever opposed to him.

The problem of the physical, post-mortem

However, the speaker (in the two long videos I viewed) does not deal with the issue of how physicality is granted to disembodied spirits. I have speculated that perhaps both Hades and Paradise have a simulated physicality, from a human perspective, for a sense of continuity with this present realm and the future permanent realms where humanity exists.

Those in Hades (Hell1) ultimately are resurrected  according to many scholars, and placed into the lake of fire (Hell2) (Revelation 20). Those in Jesus Christ (Revelation 20-22), are physically resurrected (1 Corinthians 15, 1-2 Thessalonians) and move from Paradise (Heaven1) to residing in the culminated Kingdom of God (Heaven2). If a person is alive at resurrection, the believer in Christ becomes resurrected.

Prior to the resurrection of human beings, the very significant problem of supposed physicality for disembodied spirits, exists. This should be dealt with philosophically and theologically by those that claim they have been to Heaven or Hell. If not, the issue remains intellectually problematic...

For more on Near Death Experiences see

Gary Habermas.com

BAUER, WALTER. (1979) A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Translated by Eric H. Wahlstrom, Chicago, The University of Chicago Press.

BRUCE, F.F. (1987) Romans, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

CRANFIELD, C.E.B. (1992) Romans: A Shorter Commentary, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

DUNNETT, WALTER M. (2001) Exploring The New Testament, Wheaton, Crossway Books.

ELWELL, WALTER AND YARBROUGH, ROBERT W., Third Edition (2013) Encountering The New Testament, Grand Rapids, Baker Academic. 

ERICKSON, MILLARD J. (1996) ‘Second Coming of Christ’, in Walter A. Elwell (ed.), Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Books.

ERICKSON, MILLARD (1994) Christian Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.

FEE, GORDON D. (1987) The First Epistle To The Corinthians, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

FINKBEINER, DOUGLASE (2004) Interpreting Luke 16: Abraham, Lazarus, and the Rich Man-Parable or History?, Lansdale, PA , Calvary Baptist Theological Seminary.

GUNDRY, ROBERT (1981) A Survey of the New Testament, Grand Rapids, Zondervan.

HUGHES, PHILIP, EDGCUMBE (1990) A Commentary On The Epistle To The Hebrews, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

MARSH, PAUL, W. (1986) ‘1 Corinthians’, in F.F. Bruce, (ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Marshall Pickering/Zondervan

MOUNCE, ROBERT H. (1990) The Book of Revelation, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

MOUNCE, ROBERT H. (1995) The New American Commentary: Romans, Nashville, Broadman & Holman Publishers.

PORTER, LAURENCE.E. (1986) ‘Luke’, in F.F. Bruce (gen.ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Marshall Pickering/ Zondervan.

STRONG, J. (1890)(1986) Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Pickering, Ontario, Welch Publishing Company. 

The Orthodox Study Bible, New Testament and Psalms, (1993) Saint Athanasius Orthodox Academy,Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville, Tennessee. 

  

Lecture and study notes

Lecture and study notes

FOUR VIEWS OF HELL-INTRO: Hell is a controversial topic; however it is a New Testament concept that cannot be ignored, so let us look at it both Biblically and theologically. Hell is often known as everlasting or eternal hell. According to Leon Morris, the Greek word aionion means eternal and everlasting. In regard to hell, Morris sees the idea as representing endless duration. According to Strong, aionios which is the same root word as previous, means perpetual, eternal, for ever and everlasting. According to John Walvoord, aionios usually means eternal, meaning without beginning or end, but can simply mean without end, which would be everlasting. I view God alone as being eternal, and do not view hell as part of his eternal nature, so I would conclude that hell is everlasting and not eternal. 

HELL IN THE OLD TESTAMENT: The concept is not clearly explained in the Hebrew Bible. The key word describing hell is Sheol. According to Robert A. Peterson, and others, there is a debate whether or not Sheol simply means the grave or also a hell of everlasting punishment. From my reading, this debate was not conclusive for building an O.T. case for hell. Progressive revelation is the Biblical concept that the New Testament is a further, not contradictive, more comprehensive revelation than the Hebrew Bible. It would not be shocking if hell was only eluded to, or not mentioned, in the O.T. 

HELL IN THE NEW TESTAMENT: Gehenna is one word used for hell. It represents the valley of death, and also the place of everlasting punishment. God is sovereign over Gehenna, and serves as punishment for those who reject God. There are several verses in the New Testament that use this word, such as Matthew 5:22 and 29. Sometimes the word for hell in the New Testament is Hades which is known as the grave, and where departed souls are located. This concept is seen by many to equal Old Testament Sheol. Hades, according to many including R.P. Lightner, is considered to define the intermediate state between death and future resurrection. 

In the New Testament, according to Paul, in 2 Corinthians. 5:8, departed Christians are in the presence of the Lord. They are not in Hades, as were Old Testament believers. Non-believers likely go to Hades, as is described in Luke 16, although this is a parable which some see as metaphorical only; and others see it not as metaphorical but representing an actual place out of our dimension. It appears that non-believers are resurrected and cast into the Lake of Fire, which is described in Revelation 20. The Lake of Fire, was quite possibly, another name for Gehenna. 

THE LITERAL VIEW-John F. Walvoord states that many theists who believe God is loving reject everlasting hell; however, he believes that Scripture clearly teaches everlasting punishment. He agrees that Sheol usually represents the grave in the Old Testament. However, he did explain that scholars such as Shed saw Sheol as equally Hades before the resurrection of Christ. In other words, Sheol/Hades would contain all the dead, some in the heaven part and some in the hell part. He quotes Psalm 73:24 as example of a verse that highlights the Old Testament idea of everlasting life. The writer of that verse is trusting God's council and expecting God to take them to glory, with God after death. Walvoord dealt with Jesus teaching on hell. In Matthew 5:29 and 30 Jesus talked about someone being cast into Gehenna, and in Matthew 22:33 he warned the Pharisees of hell. In Luke 12:47-48, Jesus warned of the degrees of punishment in hell. 

This seems to indicate something other than annihilation, but actual different degrees of suffering. Walvoord states Revelation 20 points out the devil, the beast and the false prophet, are thrown into the Lake of Fire along with unbelievers, and this is listed as going on forever and ever. Walvoord believes that the nature of sin against God is infinite, and thus it demands infinite punishment. I disagree and think that only God is infinite, but resurrected everlasting rebellion seemingly deserves everlasting punishment. 

THE METAPHORICAL VIEW- William V. Crockett suggests that his view is similar to that of John Calvin, and that eternal fire texts are better understood metaphorically. Crockett pointed out that metaphorical language was used throughout the New Testament, for example, heaven as a city was described in first century terms, a city surrounded by walls and gates. Today that type of metaphorical language would be obsolete. Crockett also pointed out that hell is described in places like Matthew 8:12, 2 Peter 2:17, and Jude 14 as a place of darkness. So if it were a literally fiery hell, it would not be a place of darkness. Crockett believes that hell is a place of everlasting punishment, but that it is described metaphorically in the New Testament. Crockett noted that Hades is a temporary resting place for the unsaved, until they are thrown into the Lake of Fire, which is Gehenna. 

THE PURGATORIAL VIEW - Zachary J. Hayes noted that the idea of purgatory was the interim period that attempted to explain what happens to people when they die. He stated that there is something incomplete about the situation about those who have died before the end of history, before the 2nd Advent and final judgment. The notion of purgatory is that everlasting destiny is decided at death as either heaven or hell, but not everyone seems bad enough for everlasting hell, and most do not seem good enough for heaven. Therefore, purgatory is a cleansing process postulated between death and the entrance into heaven. Hayes points out that Roman classic tradition, Christians never dealt solely with scripture for developing doctrine. So through years of reflection and experience, tradition could develop further doctrine such as purgatory. Hayes listed a verse from 2nd Maccabees Chapter 12:41-46. However, it is not accepted in the Protestant Canon or Hebrew Bible. For a New Testament example, he lists 1 Corinthians verse 3, and in 3:11-15 Paul states that there will be a day when each person's life works will be judged by fire, and Hayes suggests that it could be describing purgatory. 

However, contextually, final judgment seems to be the context, as Hayes submits many see it that was. In fact, Hayes admits that there is no clear textural proof of a doctrine of purgatory in scripture. Also, as Walvoord pointed out, the 1st Corinthians 3 discussion of things being burned up, could relate to rewards after judgment, and not one's salvation. 

THE CONDITIONAL VIEW - Clark H. Pinnock states that the traditional orthodox view of God torturing people forever is very disturbing and needs reconsideration. He favours annihilationism which allows the wicked to finally perish. Pinnock believes that terms such as everlasting punishment need not be taken to be endless torment, but rather can be defined as meaning a judgment which cannot be reversed, that leads to everlasting death. In his notes, that the concept of everlasting destruction in regard to sinners, is used throughout the New Testament such as in 2nd Thessalonians. 1:9 and Galatians 6:8, God states he will destroy the wicked. In 1st Corinthians 3:17, and Philippians 1:28, and also Romans 6:23 states that the wages of sin are death. Pinnock believes that the soul is not necessarily a mortal, but rather verses which describe soul in the New Testament, are not to be taken plain literally. Rather, human beings were created mortal and would only be immortal if resurrected by following Christ. He claims that Greek philosophy heavily influenced the Christian belief in the immortal soul. Pinnock argues that human sins are not infinite because they are committed against in infinite God, and I agree. However, sin can be everlasting and require everlasting punishment.

Pinnock suggests that evil would not be defeated if it existed in hell, and that a cosmic dualism would exist. This is a good point, however, for all intense and purposes, after final judgment, evil would no longer be a problem in God's creation as far as the universe and planet earth, which he originally created perfect and would be restored to that perfection without the problem of evil. Hell would simply be everlasting hell, and would be a special place designed for rebellion; it would not have a negative impact on God's original creation. Concerning Gehenna, as in Mark 9:48, Pinnock sees unquenchable fire as not being everlasting, but rather continuing until all the dead bodies are destroyed. This would not be everlasting punishment but would be everlasting death. He defined Luke 16:23-24 which describes Lazarus as a rich man, as metaphorical. 

Walvoord pointed out that Hebrews 9:27-28 notes a persons dies and then is judged. So the wicked exist, in his view, after death. He also points out that Revelation 20 shows people who, in Hades, being cast into the Lake of Fire, again showing that at least they exist as souls, if not soul and body. John Stott is noted to tentatively, and not dogmatically hold to an annihilationist position. He has four reasons according to Peterson. 

Firstly, the use of the word destruction in the NT is often used in regard to death, as in destruction. For example from John 3:16 those who will not believe in Christ will perish mention, everlasting hell. However, one must wonder why the Bible uses hell terminology which certainly confuses the issue, if there were no everlasting hell, and simply death. For those who will die outside of Christ, would it not be better to convey the idea of simple physical death as final judgment without facing God, or physical death, followed by judgment by God and then final death? The use of everlasting and for ever language certainly does not seem to simply convey death, although I admit that this is a possibility. Secondly, Stott views the use of the eternal fire imagery as pointing out that this will lead to the ultimate destruction of the dead outside of Christ, not their everlasting punishment. Thirdly, as did Pinnock, Stott thinks that everlasting hell is not just punishment for finite, temporal sin. However, as I pointed out in my MPhil and here tonight unbelievers whether existing in soul alone, or as it appears from Revelation 20, resurrected body and soul, will still willingly, and everlastingly reject God, and thus everlasting punishment would not be unjust. They had lived their lives apart from God, and the only reason they had experienced before their initial death, any peace and happiness at all was because God withheld his judgment in grace. Once the grace is removed and judgment proceeds, in my view hell is just punishment and an allowance by God of human beings to oppose God and live. God is a sense is lovingly allowing his creatures to freely, to some degree live apart from his rule forever, although they are being punished simultaneously. Fourthly, he shares Pinnock's concern that evil will not really be ultimately defeated if hell exists in some form. I think that annihilationism is philosophically reasonable, and Biblically possible, although the argument from Scripture for everlasting punishment seems stronger. As well, if annihilationism is true, and a non-believer does not face God after death, there seems to be a lack of justice. The sinner never is really faced with the trueness of his/her sin, and the foolishness of rejecting God. 

If one is annihilated after judgment facing God, one must wonder how God can make one sinner's punishment worse than another person's? Everlasting death would seemingly be equal punishment for all. Points from session and discussion: I mentioned that in philosophy and theology, infinite meant limitless and finite meant limited. My view was that only God is infinite, and that everlasting hell was finite. 

Howard stated, that in mathematics, infinite could mean without a beginning and end, or with a beginning and no end. Seemingly this was because numbers were both negative and positive in an unlimited way. I agreed with this math concept, but the theological answer to that point is that numbers were not real things. As finite beings we could grow in knowledge, but God was considered to have always existed and did not need to learn, as he was omniscient. Anything God would create, including creatures and hell would be finite and at best everlasting. 

Thanks Howard, good mathematical point, and I do have to be aware of how other disciplines use terms...Darren commented in regards to the metaphorical hell view that denied that flames and darkness could be together in a literal way as described in the Bible. He noted a scientific theory that black holes in space contained both heat and darkness. This meant that perhaps hell could have intense heat and darkness, and could be literal fire, and yet darkness as it is described in the Bible. I noted that it would take a different, supernatural type of fire to harm non-physical souls, or if unbelievers have bodies as Revelation 20 may indicate, resurrected bodies that may or may not be imperishable as the bodies of the saints will be. Thanks for the music, Darren.

CROCKET, WILLIAM (1992) Four Views On Hell, William Crocket (ed.),Grand Rapids, Zondervan Publishing House.

Paradise: Third Post

Amalfi Coast, Italy-Facebook-Travel+Leisure

I was listening Friday afternoon to an online Pastor. He stated basically the following view, although in the context of Luke 16, which I noted in the 2013 article:

Some scholars have concluded that since the remaining references to Paradise after Christ and the cross with Luke 23, refer to Heaven, followed by the resurrection and Christ's ascension, that Paradise has been removed from Hades...Kent (1996: 826).

The Pastor stated that the Hell section of Hades remains, although not the final place of judgment, that being the lake of fire (Revelation 20).

The implication being that Paradise was now non-existent in the New Testament context, replaced by Heaven.

What was not mentioned by the speaker was the view that Paradise has been removed from Hades and taken to the third heaven. Kent (1996: 826).

This appears Biblical in light of 2 Corinthians 12.

For fairness I will note that none of us presenting theological and Biblical works, unless presenting specific academic theses are presenting exhaustive works with articles and in the case of Pastors, sermons.

There is the issue of Paul's 2 Corinthians reference and his willingness to consider departing the body to be with the Lord in Philippians 1.

Erickson reasons that based on Biblical evidences the righteous in the intermediate state arrive at Paradise. Erickson (1994: 1183). The intensity of the condition of Paradise and Hades will not be as intense as the finalized states. Erickson (1994: 1183). This would be not only a reasonable theological and philosophical deduction based on the fact it is intermediate state and pre-final judgment (2 Corinthians 12 and Revelation 20 respectively) but also these are simply spiritual states and not spiritual/physical states. As Erickson notes the human condition is incomplete. Erickson (1994: 1183).

By my reasoning and speculation, Paradise could be a simulated spiritual realm like earth with simulated physicality.

Heaven and also Paradise could be one and the same perhaps with a new location after the resurrection of Christ.

The exact location is a rather irrelevant point as it is a spiritual realm and by my speculation, perhaps with simulated physicality.

The New Testament version of Paradise now featuring the presence of the Lord.

For the sake of argument, did the Old Testament version of Paradise never feature the Lord's presence?

This seemed to be the assumption of the Pastor.

Ephesians 4:7-10 is used by some scholars for possible support for Jesus Christ setting the Hebrew Bible Saint captives free:

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore [a]it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.” 9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what [b]does it mean except that He also [c]had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

Footnotes: Ephesians 4:8 Or He Ephesians 4:9 Lit is it except Ephesians 4:9 One early ms reads had first descended New American Standard Bible (NASB) Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation

Based on Scripture I can see the theological reasoning that Paradise may have now been relocated so those within now fully experience the presence of the Lord in Paradise/Heaven.

But does not mean that the Lord was never experienced at all in Paradise previously?

This seems speculative and questionable.

Would it be Biblically Paradise without at least some divine communication?

ERICKSON, MILLARD (1994) Christian Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.

HUGHES, PHILIP, EDGCUMBE (1990) A Commentary On The Epistle To The Hebrews, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

KENT H. A. (1996) ‘Paradise', in Walter A. Elwell (ed.), Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Books.

MARSHALL, ALFRED (1975)(1996) The Interlinear KJV-NIV, Grand Rapids, Zondervan. 

STRONG, J. (1890)(1986) Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Pickering, Ontario, Welch Publishing Company.

Deathly Word Study

Deathly Word Study

Lake Como, Italy photos (trekearth.com)

Scans featured below.

A few years ago I looked through Strong's Concordance in regard to 'Death' to see the connection with 'Hell'. Hell is at times referred to within Christianity as eternal death or the term more accurately philosophically would be everlasting death. 

Eternal means to have no beginning and no end, everlasting means to have a beginning and no end. Interestingly in New Testament Greek, according to Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the same Greek word can be defined in English as either eternal or everlasting. 

The Greek word aíwvios (aionios) is explained as meaning perpetual, used of past time or past and future as well, eternal, for ever, and everlasting. Strong (1986: 8). Strong provides only one word for eternal or everlasting from the New Testament.

Some key words for 'Death' from the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament  and New Testament from Strong's.

Scan 1: Strong, page 8. 

Scan 2: Strong, page 84.

Scan 3: Strong page 132.

Scan 4: Strong, page 146.

Scan 5: Strong page 89.

Scan 6: Strong page 16.

From both the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament and New Testament looking at Strong’s and the meaning of the words for ‘Death’ in individual contexts it seems to basically and primarily mean termination of the natural human body. But this does not mean that the Bible, especially the New Testament does not teach an everlasting hell. Browning reasons that Biblically ‘Death' in the Bible is presumed when all sign of life have disappeared; it is the end of natural life’. Browning (1997: 94).

P.H. Davids explains theologically death is a result of being cut off from God and then death causes a separation from God which is highlighted in Biblical places such as Romans 5 in regard to Adam. Davids (1996: 300). The existence of the spirit is assumed after death within a Biblical Christian world-view. Jesus gave up his spirit in John 19: 30 and Paul discusses the possibility of being with Christ and God in spirit in Philippians 1. Death is therefore not only a result of scientific realities but is also a result of sin (Genesis 3, Romans 1-6).

Erickson points out that from a Christian perspective death is not simply a transition from existence to non-existence, it is a transition from one mode of existence to another. Erickson (1996: 1169). The Scripture in the original Biblical languages does happen to technically list ‘Death’ primarily as a termination of physical life. But there is an acceptance of concepts of the existence of the spirit and judgment after death (Hebrews 9: 27). 

There is a concept of Hades for example in Luke 16. It may very well be a parable. Did the dead rich man have a body in Hades? Was he in flames? Would water from the tip of the finger of Lazarus cool off his tongue somewhat from the agony? From scholarship it probably is a parable and not plain literal. Does it mean, however, Hades is not a place at all? Not necessarily so. The parable could be describing a spiritual realm in figurative literal terms. 

As well, with Revelation Chapter 20, Hades is thrown in the lake of fire. The lake of fire appears a figurative literal location for resurrected unbelievers outside of Christ. Verse 15 states that anyone’s name not found in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. So, anyone not in Christ ends up in this realm. Literal flames? Not likely, due to the figurative type of language used although possible I suppose if persons have resurrected bodies. Spiritual separation from God, yes. So this could be considered a type of everlasting death of sorts. 

In conclusion, I reason that even with the above linguistic evidence, everlasting hell (everlasting death of sorts) is still a major New Testament concept. 

---

BROWNING, W.R.F. (1997) Oxford Dictionary of the Bible, Oxford, Oxford University Press. 

DAVIDS P.H. (1996) ‘Death' in Walter A. Elwell (ed.), Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Books. 

ERICKSON, MILLARD (1994) Christian Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House. 

STRONG, J. (1890)(1986) Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,  Burlington, Welch Publishing Company.

  

Too presumptuous

London, Unsplash

MPhil 2003

2003 The Problem of Evil: Anglican and Baptist Perspectives: MPhil thesis, Bangor University 

Statement thirty-five: Statement thirty-five stated: Ultimately evil will be confined to an everlasting hell. I think this is the best position to take from a Biblical perspective, as it appears in Revelation 20:14, that death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire. Some argue that this is describing annihilationism, however, verse 10 describes this as a place of everlasting torment for the devil, beast, and false prophet.

It would be too presumptuous, in my view, to assume that human beings thrown into this lake would simply be annihilated. With this statement there is a substantial difference in opinion between the two groups. With Anglicans, 54% agreed, 24% were not certain, and 22% disagreed. With Baptists, 86% agreed, 6% were not certain, and 8% disagreed.

Related

I see that there is some significant debate in the comments from a related article of mine from over ten years ago. I still stand by my comments against annihilation with the use of Erickson.

July 1 2009

Friendly guest comments from 2009

I don’t think this necessarily follows from Erickson’s argument even if his statements are true (and I tend to agree with him). Christ’s atonement is effectual only for those who are called, for those who’ve been regenerated to life by the Spirit. To say that Christ has atoned for the sin of all humanity is simply to say that His atoning work is sufficient for every human being, not that it is effectual for every human being. Therefore, just because some human beings’ sins are never atoned for does not argue against annihilationism. 

My reply from 2009

Quote

Therefore, just because some human beings’ sins are never atoned for does not argue against annihilationism. 

I do not think this proves your point. If atonement is not applied to a person and is not effectual this means a person is still guilty of sin. How is this paid for and covered without atonement? It is not. Remember, Erickson pointed out that Christ as infinite God outlasted finite sin in the atonement.

December 21 2019

Speculation comes to mind that I have made online and offline, over the years.

Annihilation might be theologically just, if the atonement of Jesus Christ, as infinite God and perfect human being, universally covered all human sin. But, if the bible taught universal atonement of all human sin and post-mortem annihilation; hades (post-mortem as spirit) and the lake of fire (post-mortem as resurrected) would seem unneeded.

But what about eventual annihilation?

A finite amount of time (existence if one prefers) in either reality, with literal flames, or more likely actual realities presented with metaphor, would not cover finite and continued, post-mortem, human sin against an infinite God.

The one that offered accepted atonement was the infinite God himself, as incarnate, perfect man (Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Hebrews as examples).

Luke 16 from New American Standard Bible (NASB)

19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Revelation 20 from the New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

(The second resurrection which is for unbelievers)

and

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

But, to be very clear, my noted theology of universal atonement/limited election is NOT in my mind, biblical and biblical theology. It is not my position and has never been my position. It is simply theological speculation, that I have considered as an academic. How annihilation might biblically work in light of the atoning and resurrection work of Jesus Christ as some in scholarship hold to it as a position. I hold to a Reformed, biblical position.

Related 

February 26 2019

ELWELL, WALTER AND YARBROUGH, ROBERT W., Third Edition (2013) Encountering The New Testament, Grand Rapids, Baker Academic.

MOUNCE, ROBERT H. (1990) The Book of Revelation, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

The Orthodox Study Bible: the cowardly (Non-exhaustive)

 The Orthodox Study Bible: the cowardly

THE ORTHODOX STUDY BIBLE, NEW TESTAMENT AND PSALMS (1993) Saint Athanasius Orthodox Academy, Nashville, Tennessee, Thomas Nelson Publishers.

Preface

My review of this excellent study bible within Orthodoxy continues; from my perspective as a Reformed theologian and philosopher of religion. This study bible uses the New King James Version (NKJV).

A few weeks ago, my friendly neigbour was chauffeuring me for a ride in one of his SUV vehicles, as he sought the cheaper gasoline of Silverdale, Mission. We chat theology and other topics. We were discussing the public and I stated (paraphrased) that we in Christ are saved by grace through faith alone, regenerated, justified, sanctified through the applied atoning and resurrection work of  Jesus Christ, Ephesians 1-2, Romans, Galatians, Hebrews as New Testament examples.

I also stated that some in the public are cowards in regards to God, Jesus Christ and the gospel, and these types of cowards, according to Revelation 21, will not be part of the Kingdom of God, as they favour being favoured within the world system.

My friend opined that sounded harsh. I stated, I have read the idea used within Revelation, will look it up, text it to him, which I did, and eventually write on it...God willing.

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Revelation 21: 7-8 NKJV

7 He who overcomes [a]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, [b]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Footnotes Revelation 21:7 M I shall give him these things Revelation 21:8 M adds and sinners,

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(M stands for Majority Text, in contrast to minority texts, my add)

What do the footnotes in the NKJV [New King James Version] mean?/Bible Gateway

Cited 

M-Text This symbol indicates points of variation in the Majority Text from the traditional text [a consensus of most Greek manuscripts]. It should be noted that M stands for whatever reading is printed in the published Greek New Testament According to the Majority Text, whether supported by overwhelming, strong, or only a divided majority textual tradition.

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Orthodoxy

This text notes for 'cowardly', these are in contrast to those that overcome and inherit the Kingdom of God (631). 'Those who fall away through cowardice or unbelief face instead the lake of fire (v.8). They lose God's inheritance, seeking instead the damning recompense of sin and death (see 20: 15: 22: 15), in company with the beast, the false prophet, Death and Hades.' (631).

I am wondering, are the cowards, the cowardly, only those who claimed to believe in Jesus Christ and yet fell away? The apostate?

Mounce

Mounce has an excellent, thorough, Revelation commentary. In regards to 21: 7. Quote: 'Those who deny Christ and are enticed by the allurements of the harlot to follow the beast have no inheritance in the family of God.' (374). Not necessarily a former confessing believer, seems to me. But, in 21: 8, Mounce opines 'Leading the retreat are the cowardly...' (375). Mounce has a footnote that states the ASV (American Standard Version, my add) translates as the 'fearful'. (375). But this definition is quote 'insufficiently specific' (375). These people, in retreat, from the Mounce text notes are people that fear the beast, Satan, likely represented by the Antichrist, more than they trust the love of Jesus Christ. (375). Mounce in the main text, reasons, these people as a 'last resort chose personal safety over faithfulness to Christ.' (375).

But, Mounce then states at the end of this section for 21: 8, 'This list of all apostates and pagans is to be into the lake of fire that burns with fire and brimstone (cf. 20:15).' (375).

Pagans are separated from the apostates formerly within the Christian Church.

In regards to the lake of fire, in my theological opinion, Hades (hell1) is cast into the lake of fire (hell2). The unregenerate outside of Christ, in spirit form from Hades are resurrected. Mounce writes that this is the second resurrection of the wicked only (the unregenerate, my add) (365). In my reading over the years, there is biblical and theological debate whether these people have resurrected bodies as do the regenerate (Revelation 20-22, 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Thessalonians 4, re: second coming and resurrection, 2 Thessalonians 2, re: second coming). If they do have resurrected bodies, what is the ontological, nature and existence of these bodies? For everlasting punishment and not everlasting life, as is the regenerated, resurrected, believer (Revelation 20-22), biblically, at least.

Bible Hub: Revelation 21: 8

Cited

New Testament Greek

δειλοῖς (deilois)

Strong's 

1169: cowardly, fearful

deilos: cowardly, fearful 

Original Word: δειλός, ή, όν Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: deilos Phonetic Spelling: (di-los') Definition: cowardly, fearful Usage: cowardly, timid, fearful.

Origin deos

1190. Derbaios: Bible Hub

Strong's 

1190. Derbaios Original Word: Δερβαῖος, α, ον fear, reference

Bauer defines δειλός, ή, όν, as cowardly, timid, as in particular of Revelation 21: 8 of those of little faith. (173). 

Bruce

Bruce in his Revelation commentary explains that the cowardly and unbelieving is 'John's catalogue of those who are excluded from the blessings of the new creation begins with those who through fear have denied the faith in the face of persecution.' (1626).

Seems to be a description of the fearful, apostates.

Dr. Grant Richison

versebyversecommentary about

Cited

'Grant is a Bible expositor who is dedicated to a lifetime of studying and teaching God’s Word. Dr. Richison has been the senior pastor of three churches from 1965 to 1992. His most recent pastorate was at Grant Memorial Baptist Church, Winnipeg, Manitoba, where, for a 20-year period, he had oversight of a ministry that expanded from a church of 300 to one of the largest churches in Canada.

During the period of his pastorates, Grant taught at William Tyndale College (Detroit MI), Providence Theological Seminary (Manitoba), Northwest Baptist Seminary (Vancouver), International School of Theology (Vancouver extension), and Briercrest Graduate School (Saskatchewan). He taught Greek, Advance Greek grammar, exegesis courses and theology. His website Verse-by-Verse Commentary is read in most countries of the world (versebyversecommentary.com). The blog has over 14,000 pages of material written by Grant.'

Revelation 21:8 by Grant Richison, Feb 7, 1999 

Cited

'In contrast to Christians who have an eternally right standing with God, we now turn to those who have no standing with God. These others will have a part “in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone.” We see eight characteristics of the non-Christian. First, the “cowardly” are those who are spineless. They cave into their fears rather than trust God to save them eternally. They live in stark fear of death. It is cowardly not to receive Jesus as your Savior. “Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage” (Hebrews 2:14-15).

'They cave into their fears rather than trust God to save them eternally.' 'It is cowardly not to receive Jesus as your Savior.'  Not distinctly, former public Christian adherents.

Dr. Jack W. Cottrell

About Jack

Cited  

'Academically, Jack has a BA and a ThB from Cincinnati Christian University; a BA in philosophy from the University of Cincinnati; an MDiv from Westminster Theological Seminary; and a PhD in theology from Princeton Theological Seminary. He was a Professor of Theology at Cincinnati Christian University from September 1967 to December 2015 — a total of forty-eight and one-half years.'

Who Are the “Cowardly” in Revelation 21:8? August 26, 2010 by Jack Cottrell  

'Question: In Revelation 21:8, why is “cowardly” in the list of people that will not enter heaven? What does this word mean? What is John getting at? 

Answer: This well-known verse says, “But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death” (ESV, throughout). Thus it seems clear that the “cowardly” indeed will not enter heaven. 

Who are the “cowardly”? The Greek word is “deilos,” which is from a family of words that occur only rarely in the NT. This is the adjective; it is found here in Rev. 21:8 and in the parallel accounts in Matt. 8:26 and Mark 4:40. These texts are reporting the incident where Jesus and His disciples are in a boat in a great storm, and the disciples cry out, “Save us, Lord; we are perishing.” Jesus rebukes them thus: “Why are you afraid [deilos], O you of little faith?” (Matt.), or “Why are you so afraid [deilos]? Have you no faith?” (Mark). The noun “deilia” is used just once, in 2 Tim. 1:7, “For God gave us a spirit not of fear [deilia] but of power and love and self-control.” The verb “deiliao” is also used just once, in John 14:27b, “Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid [deiliao].” 

The basic meaning of the adjective thus is cowardly, fearful, timid, fainthearted. In these and in Christian writings in general the word does not refer to specific and usually mundane fears such as fear of water, fear of spiders, fear of heights, or fear of speaking in public. Rather, the word is used in a context of persecution, where one has to choose between taking a stand for Jesus and denying faith in Him. C. Spicq says this: “When Rev. 21:8 places the fainthearted and the unbelieving in the lake of fire, it has in view Christians during times of persecution who, out of a fear of suffering, renounce their faith. It is a commonplace that human courage and cowardice are revealed in the face of death” (“Theological Lexicon of the NT,” Hendrickson 1994, I:301). In effect, then, such cowardice is similar to or even the same as unbelief. Rev. 21:8 lists the cowardly and the faithless together.'

Comments

1. This brief research has informed me that according to scholarship, in general, the primary context of the cowardly or fearful in Revelation 21: 8 is apostates. Quoting this study bible: 'Those who fall away through cowardice or unbelief face instead the lake of fire (v.8). This is in contrast to verse 7 and He who overcomes [a]shall inherit all things...

In 21: 8, Mounce opines 'Leading the retreat are the cowardly...' (375). Mounce in the main text, reasons, these people as a 'last resort chose personal safety over faithfulness to Christ.' (375). Cottrell states 'In effect, then, such cowardice is similar to or even the same as unbelief. Rev. 21:8 lists the cowardly and the faithless together.'

2. I am wondering, are the cowards, the cowardly, only those who claimed to believe in Jesus Christ and yet fell away? 

But, Mounce then states at the end of this section for 21: 8, 'This list of all apostates and pagans is to be into the lake of fire that burns with fire and brimstone (cf. 20:15).' (375).

I think there is a secondary context, as in the pagans, that were never part of the Christian Church and reject God, Jesus Christ and the comforts of conformity to the world. These are the people I had in mind, more so, in the discussion with my friend.

Note that all the types of people on the list....8 But the cowardly, [b]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” I do not see a biblical, theological reason that these are all necessarily apostates, or always apostates, in fact, more often, likely not having been within the Christian Church, whatsoever, I would reason. So I do not think that the cowardly and fearful are always apostates either.

BAUER, WALTER. (1979) A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Translated by Eric H. Wahlstrom, Chicago, The University of Chicago Press.

BRUCE, F.F. (1986) 'Revelation' in F.F. Bruce (ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Zondervan.

COTTRELL, JACK (2010) Jack Cottrell. com, Word Press.

https://jackcottrell.com/

COURSON, JON (2005) Application Commentary, Thomas Nelson, Nashville.

HOCKING, DAVID (2014) The Book of Revelation, Tustin, California, HFT Publications.

MOUNCE, ROBERT H. (1990) The Book of Revelation, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

RICHARDSON, GRANT C (1999) Verse-By-Verse Commentary, Word Press.

https://versebyversecommentary.com/

STRONG, J. (1890)(1986) Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Burlington, Welch Publishing Company.

THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT (1993) Stuttgart, United Bible Societies. F.F. Bruce, (ed.),

THE ORTHODOX STUDY BIBLE, NEW TESTAMENT AND PSALMS (1993) Saint Athanasius Orthodox Academy, Nashville, Tennessee, Thomas Nelson Publishers.

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 istockphoto

Status does not make an argument true

Status does not make an argument true

PIRIE, MADSEN (2006)(2015) How To Win Every Argument, Bloomsbury, London.

Preface   

My photo 20250420, Milano. 

Lazarum, arguementum ad

The poor person may be blessed, but is not always right. (140). A reference to the poor man, Lazarus, in the New Testament.

Luke 16:19-31

English Standard Version (ESV)

19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.[a] The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

Footnotes: Luke 16:22 Greek bosom; also verse 23

Note: Theologically, Martin Luther's view here on Luke 16: 19-31:

Wikipedia: Rich man and Lazarus 

'Martin Luther taught that the story was a parable about rich and poor in this life and the details of the afterlife not to be taken literally: Therefore we conclude that the bosom of Abraham signifies nothing else than the Word of God, ... the hell here mentioned cannot be the true hell that will begin on the day of judgment. For the corpse of the rich man is without doubt not in hell, but buried in the earth; it must however be a place where the soul can be and has no peace, and it cannot be corporeal. Therefore it seems to me, this hell is the conscience, which is without faith and without the Word of God, in which the soul is buried and held until the day of judgment, when they are cast down body and soul into the true and real hell. (Church Postil 1522–23)[17]' 

(17) 'volume IV: pp. 17–32 Archived 2010-10-11 at the Wayback Machine, The Sermons of Martin Luther Baker Book House Grand Rapids, MI' 

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Non-Wikipedia version

Whole Reason: Thoughtful Christianity: Letters to a Traditionalist on Hell 04 – Lazarus and the Rich Man

'Therefore we conclude that the bosom of Abraham signifies nothing else than the Word of God,…. the hell here mentioned cannot be the true hell that will begin on the day of judgment. For the corpse of the rich man is without doubt not in hell, but buried in the earth; it must however be a place where the soul can be and has no peace, and it cannot be corporeal. Therefore it seems to me, this hell is the conscience, which is without faith and without the Word of God, in which the soul is buried and held until the day of judgment, when they are cast down body and soul into the true and real hell. (Church Postil 1522-23)' 

Website: About 

'Whole Reason is the theological teaching site for Associate Pastor Daniel G. Sinclair, living and working in the Nashville, Tennessee area. I recently completed a Masters in Theology at Williamson College.' 

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I agree with Martin Luther that this a non-plain literal, parable. I do reason that the unregenerate (as opposed to the regenerate through the Holy Spirit, John 3, Titus 3, 1 Peter 1) soul/spirit, post-mortem goes to Hades (Hell1), but that this is a non-corporeal spiritual existence. A spiritual existence of non-peace outside of common grace which existed in the temporal realm. The conscience, mind, soul/spirit in Luke 16 is facing pure justice as this person, post-mortem, is not covered by the atoning and resurrection work of Jesus Christ for sin (s) provided to believers by grace through faith. The 'true hell' (Hell2) according to Martin Luther is that of the lake of fire (Revelation 20) where both resurrected body and soul are cast in the lake of fire. I reason that the lake of fire too is non-plain literal, and death and Hades are cast in Revelation 20: 14, which describes the second death. But, I agree with Luther that this is culminated hell, with a physical/spiritual aspect. The dead outside of Christ are cast into Hell2.

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Pirie opines that poverty does not enhance an argument. (140). In other words, if someone is poor, it does not enhance his/her argument and make it true. Perhaps for some, human sympathy in regard to a poor person, influences a lack of objectivity in evaluating premises and conclusions.

'Poverty does not contribute to the soundness of an argument.' (141). Of course being in the middle-class or wealthy, does not contribute to the soundness of an argument.

The author's point is technically correct, but then again the status of any person does not make his/her argument true; the correctness of premises and conclusions make an argument true.

If I opine on theology, bible or philosophy of religion, the argument is not necessarily true because I have a related PhD, but if my premises and conclusions are true, my argument is sound. As Pirie notes this fallacy is due to giving attention to the source of argumentation, instead of to the contentions made. (141).

Status does not make an argument true

An argument can be embraced from a type of celebrity or authority, without reasonable, in-depth evaluation of premises and conclusions made. 

An argument can have logical premises, but not all premises are reasonable and the argument is false.

Premise 1: Canada has existed since 1867

Premise 2: Dr. Russ is a Canadian

Premise 3: Dr. Russ is a noted 19th Century scholar (Dr. Russ did not exist until the 20th Century)

Conclusion: He earned his Canadian PhD in 1890 (He earned his PhD in the 21st Century, in Wales, not Canada. It may have been reasonable for me to have earned a Canadian PhD, but not reasonable in the 19th Century) 

Premise 1: Logical, reasonable, true

Premise 2: Logical, reasonable, true

Premise 3: Logical, not reasonable, not true 

Conclusion: Logical, but not reasonable or true.

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An argument can have premises that are logical and reasonable, but not true as an argument.

Premise 1: Dr. Russ is a Canadian

Premise 2: He lived in the 20th-21st Centuries

Premise 3: Dr. Russ is not a radical conservative

Conclusion: He votes federally for the Liberal Party

Premise 1: Logical, reasonable, true
Premise 2: Logical, reasonable, true
Premise 3: Logical, reasonable, true

Conclusion: Logical and reasonable, but not true. I have never voted for the federal Liberal Party.

Valid arguments cannot have a true premise (s) and false conclusion.

BLACKBURN, S. (1996) ‘Eternity’, in Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy, Oxford, Oxford University Press. 

CONWAY DAVID A. AND RONALD MUNSON (1997) The Elements of Reasoning, Wadsworth Publishing Company, New York. 

ERICKSON, MILLARD (1994) Christian Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House. 

FINKBEINER, DOUGLASE (2004) Interpreting Luke 16: Abraham, Lazarus, and the Rich Man-Parable or History?, Lansdale, PA , Calvary Baptist Theological Seminary. 

PORTER, LAURENCE.E. (1986) ‘Luke’, in F.F. Bruce (gen.ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Marshall Pickering/ Zondervan. 

MOLTMANN, JÜRGEN (1993) The Crucified God, Minneapolis, Fortress Press. 

MOUNCE, ROBERT H. (1990) The Book of Revelation, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. 

POJMAN, LOUIS P. (1996) Philosophy: The Quest for Truth, New York, Wadsworth Publishing Company. STRONG, J. (1986) 

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Pickering, Ontario, Welch Publishing Company.

The Orthodox Study Bible, New Testament and Psalms, (1993) Saint Athanasius Orthodox Academy,Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville, Tennessee.

Post common grace

Munich: Wikimedia Commons

Common Grace v Specific Grace: September 2017

Perhaps the Boss's favourite careworker, a Roman Catholic, originally from the Philippines,(paraphrased) asked me, from my Reformed and Protestant theological view, what I thought happens to deceased persons that are outside of Jesus Christ.

I opined that common grace covers all of humanity, to various degrees, while in this realm...

From John Calvin:

CALVIN, JOHN (1599) The Institutes of the Christian Religion, Printed at London by Arnold Hatfield, for Bonham Norton, Introduction by John Murray.

Book 2:Chapter 2: 17  segment,,,

The sum of the whole is this: From a general survey of the human race, it appears that one of the essential properties of our nature is reason, which distinguishes us from the lower animals, just as these by means of sense are distinguished from inanimate objects. For although some individuals are born without reason, that defect does not impair the general kindness of God, but rather serves to remind us, that whatever we retain ought justly to be ascribed to the Divine indulgence. Had God not so spared us, our revolt would have carried along with it the entire destruction of nature. In that some excel in acuteness, and some in judgment, while others have greater readiness in learning some peculiar art, God, by this variety commends his favour toward us, lest any one should presume to arrogate to himself that which flows from His mere liberality. For whence is it that one is more excellent than another, but that in a common nature the grace of God is specially displayed in passing by many and thus proclaiming that it is under obligation to none. We may add, that each individual is brought under particular influences according to his calling.

Example from Scripture

Many examples of this occur in the Book of Judges, in which the Spirit of the Lord is said to have come upon those whom he called to govern his people (Judges 6:34). In short, in every distinguished act there is a special inspiration.

An example from the New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Matthew 5:44-45

44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may [a]be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Footnotes: Matthew 5:45 Or show yourselves to be
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As common grace ends, Revelation 20 summarizes the culminated future post-mortem events, although in figurative literal terms, for those that reject the gospel.

Revelation 20:14-15

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if [a]anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Footnotes:

Revelation 20:15 Lit anyone was

Equated with having one's name in the book of life, is to have the atoning and resurrection work of Jesus Christ applied to one through grace through faith, not by good works, but for good works. (Ephesians 2).

I explained to the careworker (paraphrased) that to be in Christ means to trust in the gospel work for justification, sanctification and complete salvation alone, as opposed to trusting in, for example, the biblical, gospel work of Christ plus human works through the Roman Catholic Church, or Protestant churches, or Eastern Orthodox churches for salvation.

Human works of grace and faith, through Christian churches are a sign of embracing salvation, not means of salvation. (see Ephesians 1-2, James). These demonstrate that one is saved, but do not save in themselves.

So, someone is not simply saved by an intellectual belief in the gospel, but by being born from above, regenerated (John 3, Titus 3) being enlightened and transformed by the gospel leading to works within salvation.

Post-mortem, those outside of the saving work of Jesus Christ are post common grace and are as spirit cast into Hades (Luke 16) again using figurative literal language, and eventually the lake of fire (Revelation 20).

Brief On Nephilim/Origins Debate

Peru-Google+

Brief On Nephilim/Origins Debate

Edited: February 16, 2021, July 7, 2022

Driving back from work at night just now, in the oncoming lane separated by a concrete barrier, I heard and did not see, it was that fast and did not even see the lights if there were any on, a motorbike fly by at what I estimated was probably 100-130 mph... Crazy.

So as I am back from work I would like to finish this brief post: I started it earlier today and then was asked to come to work as a favour...

Brief On Nephilim

From Northview Community Church, theology class Wednesday night: Angels and Demons

Genesis 6: 1-6 English Standard Version

When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, z“My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, afor he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. 5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

Jude 1: 5-6  English Standard Version

5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved[c] a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire,[b] serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

The speculation by the pastor, citing some theologians in general, was that Jude 1 is describing the angels, the sons of God and the Nephilim from Genesis 6. The theory being these angels could no longer procreate being in prison. Likely the Abyss/Hades. Which 'likewise' indulged in sexual immorality.

Marshall translates it 'in the like manner'. Marshall (1984: 721).

ton omoion tropon
in the like    manner

For balance the pastor mentioned...

Matthew 22:30-31 English Standard Version

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching.

It could be deduced here that it is indicated that angels do not procreate and resurrected human beings shall not procreate. However, he noted the possibility that angels and demons taking human form could possibly procreate. Angels appearing as men in Genesis 19, for example--Sodom.

If some demonic beings could take the form of persons and have sexual relations, it is possible that some that are not in prison, the abyss, Hades, and are still capable of such acts. I am not dogmatic on this issue either way, but it is interesting.

Asexual?  

Edits: February 16, 2021

By the way, I do not reason that resurrected human beings being like angels means persons shall be asexual in the culminated Kingdom of God.

I think that is reading too much into what was stated.

See also Erickson and Kreeft with views of hyper-sexuality (my paraphrased term, in general agreement with their views) which I think are reasonable. Sexuality in the sense of spirit-body (1 Corinthians 15). Much more spiritual and pure than anything to be found in a fallen world.

Not mass celestial marriages or like.

In my mind, likely spirit-body essence bonding as opposed to body parts bonding as needed for pro-creation. A spirit-body without sin, allows a much deeper level of fellowship, including with one of the opposite sex.

This still being in line with Genesis 1-2 and God's plans for male and female.

Persons shall not procreate and shall not marry, like angels.

The fact human beings are resurrected as physical men and women still makes a serious and significant ontological distinction from angelic beings.

Note: Christ was resurrected as a man.

Erickson states that experiences in the culminated of God could be 'suprasexual' (1232). Beyond sexual union. (1232). Experiences in heaven will surpass those in this realm. (1232). The opposite sex can be enjoyed beyond sexual union in purity.

hyper and supra both meaning 'beyond' in context.

From

Is There Sex in Heaven?: Peter Kreeft.com

Sex in Heaven? Indeed, and no pale, abstract, merely mental shadow of it either. Earthly sex is the shadow, and our lives are a process of thickening so that we can share in the substance, becoming Heavenly fire so that we can endure and rejoice in the Heavenly fire.

Origins Debate

In regard the Bill Nye versus Ken Ham debate, I was emailed the following...

Cited

'A clash over worldviews by Lita Cosner, Scott Gillis, Keaton Halley

Creation was on the media’s radar again recently, thanks to the announcement that media personality Bill Nye (best-known for his TV show ‘Bill Nye the Science Guy’) would go head-to-head in a debate with Ken Ham at the Creation Museum in Kentucky. Bill Nye was actually criticized for debating a creationist by his fellow atheists.

Dr Jerry Coyne, professor of ecology at the University of Chicago, says that: “… he should just continue to write and talk about the issue on his own, and not debate creationists. By so doing, he gives them credibility simply by appearing beside them on the platform.”

Similarly, the high priest of evolution, Richard Dawkins, said: “I agree that to do this on Ham’s home turf was a mistake, and indeed it is almost always a mistake to give wingnuts the oxygen of publicity, and the respectability of being seen on a platform with a real scientist, anywhere.”

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My edited replies:

Certainly do not agree with Nye and his naive Religious Studies evaluations. He fails to understand likely, philosophical subjects such as first cause and the need for it, instead claiming not to know, when a philosophical first cause although not proving a Biblical God, is in line with that Genesis 1, God concept.

I heard Ham debate Hughes Ross (Old Earth Christian Astronomer) and from what I remember I thought Ross won the debate easily on the scientific front and the Scripture discussion was at least a draw.

The argument for measurable light years was an argument seems to me that Ross won with easily. Using this to measure time and distance 'It is a Universal constant'. Oxford (2010: 773).

Reasons To Believe: Debate

I think Reason to Believe is good for the science, but I do not think Hugh Ross is a Religious scholar from what I have heard.

Cited

‘By contrast, RTB advocates an old-earth creation perspective. We interpret the “days” of Genesis as long ages.’

This from my less than exhaustive understanding would not necessarily be the case as ‘Yom’ can mean 24 hour days and is the interpretation of some for Genesis 1. However, it is quite possible to use a literal term in a poetic figurative literal context. Jesus can state: I am the door in John 10: 9 which according to Strong is a literal door...door, gate, portal, entrance (Strong p. 47) and yet here it is used in a figurative literal context, as Christ is stating that He is the way of salvation.

Additional

Lexicon

#2374. θυ´ρα thura; a prim. word; a door:— NASB - door(28), doors(6), entrance(3), gate(1), gates(1). And then...

Strong allows for plain literal and figurative uses of 'yowm' in 3117 (Strong p. 63).

Hebrew
ם 
yôm yome

From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially)

End citations

AUGUSTINE (388-395)(1964) On Free Choice of the Will, Translated by Anna S.Benjamin and L.H. Hackstaff, Upper Saddle River, N.J., Prentice Hall. 

AUGUSTINE (398-399)(1992) Confessions, Translated by Henry Chadwick, Oxford, Oxford University Press. 

AUGUSTINE (400-416)(1987)(2004) On the Trinity, Translated by Reverend Arthur West Haddan, in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series One, Volume 3, Denver, The Catholic Encyclopedia. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/130104.htm 

AUGUSTINE (421)(1998) Enchiridion, Translated by J.F. Shaw, Denver, The Catholic Encyclopedia. http://www.knight.org/advent 

AUGUSTINE (426)(1958) The City of God, Translated by Gerald G. Walsh, Garden City, New York, Image Books. AUGUSTINE (427)(1997) On Christian Doctrine, Translated by D.W. Robertson Jr., Upper Saddle River, N.J., Prentice Hall. 

AUGUSTINE (427b)(1997) On Christian Teaching, Translated by R.P.H. Green, Oxford, Oxford University Press.

BAUER, WALTER. (1979) A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Translated by Eric H. Wahlstrom, Chicago, The University of Chicago Press. 

BLACKBURN, SIMON (1996) Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy, Oxford, Oxford University Press.

CALVIN, JOHN (1554)(1965) Genesis, Translated by John King, Edinburgh, The Banner of Truth Trust. 

ELLISON, H.L. (1986) ‘Genesis’, in F.F. Bruce (ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Zondervan.

ERICKSON, MILLARD (1994) Christian Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.

ERICKSON, MILLARD (2003) What Does God Know and When Does He Know It?, Grand Rapids, Zondervan. 

FRETHEIM, TERENCE E. (1994) ‘Is Genesis 3 a Fall Story?’, in Word and World, Luther Seminary, pp. 144-153, Saint Paul, Luther Seminary.

HAMILTON, VICTOR P. (1988) Handbook on the Pentateuch, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House. 

KREEFT, PETER (1988) Fundamentals of the Faith, San Francisco, Ignatius Press. 

KREEFT, PETER AND RONALD K. TACELLI (1994) Handbook of Christian Apologetics, Downers Grove, Illinois, InterVarsity Press.

LA SOR, WILLIAM SANFORD, DAVID ALLAN HUBBARD, AND FREDERIC WILLIAM BUSH. (1987) Old Testament Survey, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

MARSHALL, ALFRED (1975)(1996) The Interlinear KJV-NIV, Grand Rapids, Zondervan.

Oxford Dictionary of Science, (2010), Sixth Edition, Oxford, Oxford University Press. 

PAYNE DAVID F. (1986) 'Jude' in F.F. Bruce (ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Zondervan.

STRONG, J. (1890)(1986) Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Burlington, Welch Publishing Company.

THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT (1993) Stuttgart, United Bible Societies.

Staying alive?

Fireworks @ Montreal's Old Port. Tourism Montreal (arctic)

MPhil 2003

2003 The Problem of Evil: Anglican and Baptist Perspectives: MPhil thesis, Bangor University 

Statement thirty-seven: The thirty-seventh statement stated: Those who do not believe and trust in Jesus Christ will cease to exist after judgement. This is, of course, another related statement. I believe that God in his love will allow beings who oppose him to exist in hell. This will serve as punishment as well. For Anglicans, 8% agreed with the statement, while 28% were not certain, and 64% disagreed. With the Baptist responders, 12% agreed, with 18% being not certain, and 70% disagreeing.

Too presumptuous Saturday, December 21, 2019

Annihilation was just discussed with Statement 35. I also cited some of my previous related work.

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December 30, 2019

Hades (Luke 16 example), is where the spirit (s) of the unregenerate exist, post-mortem (hell1).

The lake of fire (Revelation 20 example), is where the unregenerate exist, post-mortem, after the future second resurrection (hell2).

Revelation 20 from the New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. (The second resurrection which is for unbelievers)

and 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Hell serves as continued divine punishment for the human embracing of sinful nature, desires, limited free will, acts and actions.

Hell serves as continued divine allowance, within God's will for human beings to oppose God, and the gospel work of Jesus Christ.

Neither hell1 or hell2 is forced or coerced upon a human being, for the sake of significant moral human accountability; significant moral human accountability requires the secondary cause (humanity) to at least within limited free will, embrace sinful nature, desires, limited free, acts and actions.

God is eternally the first and primary cause of all things, and it should be noted that post-mortem, common grace is removed by God for humanity.

Every human being receives common grace in this temporal life. Whereas only those chosen in Jesus Christ, receive specific grace, in regards to salvation. Humanity is not instantly judged for sin, but only those covered by the atoning and resurrection work of Jesus Christ through the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are everlastingly saved in everlasting life (John 3, Romans 1-8, Ephesians 1-2, Hebrews examples).

Hebrews 9:27-28 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

27 And inasmuch as it is [a]appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Footnotes: Hebrews 9:27 Lit laid up

Interesting from Jon Courson and his commentary here in regard to Hebrews 9: 27:

Take those who say the Bible doesn't teach against reincarnation to this passage-and wallop 'em. Courson (1488).

Boice notes that from Hebrews 9: 27 that Christ put away sin by the sacrifice of himself, after that comes (divine, my add) judgement. Boice (348).

Hebrews 10: 10 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

10 By [e]this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10:10 Lit which

There is a new covenant presented through, God the Son, in the New Testament. The first sacrificial system (from the Hebrew Bible, my add) is gone, replaced by the new covenant. Courson (1489).

Boice explains that through the atonement, we have been 'sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all (10: 10)'. Boice (288).

BOICE, JAMES, MONTGOMERY (1981) Foundations of the Christian Faith, Downers Grove, IVP Press.

COURSON, JON (2005) Application Commentary, Thomas Nelson, Nashville.

MOUNCE, ROBERT H. (1990) The Book of Revelation, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.