Wednesday, November 19, 2008

Augustine and Privation revisited

Ciboure Clocher, France (photo from trekearth.com) Jeff, thank you and very nice job. Jeff Jenkins Privation is an important topic in my PhD thesis on the problem of evil/theodicy, and was discussed on this blog previously when I had fewer readers. I wish to revisit the concept and add some new material. Privation is not quote... "privatization Definition 1 The repurchasing of all of a company's outstanding stock by employees or a private investor. As a result of such an initiative, the company stops being publicly traded. Sometimes, the company might have to take on significant debt to finance the change in ownership structure. Companies might want to go private in order to restructure their businesses (when they feel that the process might affect their stock prices poorly in the short run). They might also want to go private to avoid the expense and regulations associated with remaining listed on a stock exchange. Also called going private. Opposite of going public. Definition 2 The process of moving from a government-controlled system to a privately run, for-profit system." From Privatization Privation Augustine is one of my exemplars dealing with the problem of evil and within his text Enchiridion discusses privation and the corruption of humanity. Augustine (421)(1998: Chapter 13: 8). The subject is also discussed in On Free Choice of the Will. What follows is a fairly short non-exhaustive article on a complex subject. Augustine’s view of the corruption and privation of created matter and nature was that they were good things as created originally by God, but had become less than they were originally intended through rebellion against God. Augustine (388-395)(1964: 116-117). Augustine reasons that every nature, and by that he means substance that was finite (limited as angels and humans beings are) could be corrupted. Augustine (388-395)(1964: 116). The term substance, particularly in regard to God, is not necessarily physical substance but, instead, is the very core of a being. Augustine (388-395)(1964: 117). Each nature and substance that could become less good would still be good, and every nature would become less good when it was corrupted. Augustine (388-395)(1964: 116-117). With this view both physical matter and spiritual inner being could become corrupt. Rowan Greer indicates Augustine viewed privation as meaning that evil has no ontological status (meaning evil does not exist on its own). Greer (1996: 482). But from his writings Augustine does not necessarily state that as his view. Augustine dealt primarily with the idea of evil as negation, and I doubt he would fail to see that after corruption had taken place in creation that living, existing, beings committed evil acts, and in a sense evil beings existed. Augustine reasons that every human being that exists is good, but is evil where it is defective. Augustine (421)(1998: Chapter 13: 7). Although privation seems true in a negative sense, a problem with the concept in creatures is that corruption and the resulting evil in creatures is not merely an absence of something good, but consists of its own positive, destructive quality, as private creatures not only lack the will to do what is good, but will to do evil. John Hick reasons that Augustine’s idea of privation fails to deal with the fact that corrupted persons do not always tend to disintegrate and cease to exist in will and personality. Hick (1970: 62). This would seem correct as a corrupted and evil entity can grow in intelligence and power, so a mere corruption of a being from original perfection does not appear to weaken it to that status of non-existence. Something is considered evil because it can be seen to have a diminished degree of goodness. This appears reasonable; however, the diminished goodness in a creature is not replaced by non-existence, but by an actual corrupted nature within the person. It should be noted that Augustine is quite difficult to read and understand and it is not surprising that he is interpreted in varying ways. His writing style makes interpretations difficult as well, in my opinion, from the English translations. From a Biblical perspective the remaining goodness left in human beings after corruption is not sufficient for salvation. Romans 3:23 states that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and Romans 6:23 explains that the wages of sin are death, but the free gift of everlasting life is for those in Christ. Therefore even if privation is correct negatively, and everything that exists, no matter how evil it is, must contain some goodness, and evil does not exist on its own, human beings are still far from being perfectly morally good. God’s standards for salvation and entrance into the Kingdom of God that were originally broken in Genesis 3, included moral perfection and goodness in obedience to God, and fallen beings do not have perfect goodness. Human beings are therefore dependent on the atoning work and resurrection of Christ to deal with the results of sin and death, allowing those in Christ to obtain true moral perfection and goodness and entrance into the everlasting Kingdom of God. AUGUSTINE (388-395)(1964) On Free Choice of the Will, Translated by Anna S.Benjamin and L.H. Hackstaff, Upper Saddle River, N.J., Prentice Hall. AUGUSTINE (421)(1998) Enchiridion, Translated by J.F. Shaw, Denver, The Catholic Encyclopedia. GREER, ROWAN A. (1996) ‘Augustine’s Transformation of The Free Will Defence’, Faith and Philosophy, Volume 13, Number 4, October, pp. 471-486. Wilmore, Kentucky, Asbury College. HICK, JOHN (1970) Evil and The God of Love, London, The Fontana Library. My Mom emailed me some SUPPOSED celebrity mansions and so I thought I would edit and share a few of them. Oprah Arnold, the Governor Eddie Murphy Sylvester Stallone Jerry Sienfeld  

O.J. Simpson

42 comments:

  1. OJ Simpson's home: LOL!

    Actor Christopher Lloyd just lost his expensive home in the California fire; he lived close to Oprah Winfrey.

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  2. Link

    LOS ANGELES (AP) — Christopher Lloyd says he has a "different awareness" after returning to his burned-out Montecito home.

    The "Back to the Future" actor told ABC's "Good Morning America" that he wouldn't rebuild the $11 million home in the celebrity enclave northwest of Los Angeles. It was among dozens of homes lost in wildfires.

    "You watch TV, you see these kinds of incidents happening here and there, but you look with a kind of detachment because it's happening ... elsewhere," he said, walking through the rubble. "But suddenly to be in the midst of it, it's a very different awareness."

    Lloyd he'd been putting off organizing and storing memorabilia that he'd kept at the house.

    "Kind of don't have to worry about that now," he said.

    That is tough. Sorry to read that, Jeff. Thanks.

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  3. Nice writeup on privation, and I especially enjoyed how you tied it all together at the end. You're right -- regardless of our views on the nature of evil, it ultimately boils down to this: we are all sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God and are in need of redemption.

    I once had a professor who was talking about the catch phrase, "Be all that you can be." He said, "That's so wrong, so wrong. All of us have the potential to be thieves, murderers, rapists ... instead, we need to strive to be all that God intends for us to be."

    Regards,
    Joel (nutuba)

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  4. Thanks, Joel.

    You provide an excellent point. I reason a major theological error many make is to fail to see the depth of human corruption and the depth of God's holiness and moral perfection.

    This is one of the things theologically, the problem of evil demonstrates.

    Russ

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  5. Hi Russ,

    I found a couple of sites today that teach truth and are focused on Christ. The writers at these sites are excellent writers, too.

    If you'd like, check these out:
    http://www.charlottesheart.com
    and
    http://thelensoftruth.blogspot.com

    Regards,
    Joel (nutuba)

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  6. Thanks, Joel.

    I will have a look at those sites.

    Russ:)

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  7. Hello Russ,

    Yes indeed we are all in need of redemption through and in Christ Jesus and i agree with Joel, striving to be all that God intends for us should be are passion.

    Those mansions are beautiful all except for O.J's. LOL!


    Tamela :)

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  8. Hello, Tamela.

    Thanks. I figured if O.J. was unwise enough to get in serious trouble again he would be sent to prison.

    This is a man that should have played it ice cold cool for the rest of his life.

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  9. "privation as meaning that evil has no ontological status (meaning evil does not exist on its own)"

    I lean towards viewing the concept of evil in this way: evil does not exist on its own, but is the "vandalism" of Shalom (to use Cornelius Plantinga language). God is an ontological reality and He is good (if we believe His word). Before He created, there was nothing "outside" of God, i.e. there was God and only God. After creating the cosmos, He calls His creation "good" and "very good". So unless we attribute "evil" to God Himself (that He somehow can be evil or that He created evil), I don't see how we can consider "evil" as anything other than the deprivation of "good".

    The acts that we attribute to "evil" are easy enough to understand as simply the exercise of the depravity of the human heart that has not been restored to its created design and function. Anything that does not fully conform to its created design and function is less than what it was created to be--the deprivation, if you will, of the "good" that marked us before the Fall. Evil wasn't added to us...corruption is the absence of fulness (I believe).

    When Christ came as the promised Seed of the Woman, He came to undo the curse and restore (recover) all things to God in Himself. Evil isn't an ontological substance that He had to fight, He came to recover "fallen" humanity; He came to recover shalom--to restore all things to their created purpose. Both man (not all men, to be sure) and creation experience this recovery in Christ--man now, by the presence of the Spirit, and the created order when Christ returns. Shalom will be restored and all things will exist in the fulness of their (re)created nature. Estrangement (separation from God, ourselves, other human beings and the created order) is replaced by intimacy and communion (right relationship) with God, ourselves, other human beings and the created order.

    This is how I see it, anyway. I'm sure some people may bring up Satan. "Isn't he the epitomy of evil?" Well...we're told that even he was created good; so unless "evil" was somehow added to him, we can understand his "falleness" as a deprivation as well.

    I'm sure I didn't cover nearly as much as I should (could?) have, but I think everyone gets my general point. This is a subject that can (and will) be debated until Christ comes back; but praise be to Him that He has provided the remedy and all we are called to do is to come to Him by faith!

    GGM

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  10. Thanks, Jason.

    We are in basic agreement concerning privation and the very related concept of deprivation.

    deprivation

    dep·ri·va·tion (dpr-vshn)
    n.
    1.
    a. The act or an instance of depriving; loss.
    b. The condition of being deprived; privation.
    2. A removal of rank or office.


    Of course within a Reformed model, God wills all things, but his motives remain pure and human beings freely sin within a corrupt nature. Adam and Eve freely sinned in the process of becoming corrupt.

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  11. Soccer Divers how ridiculous!
    Get a life guys, get the red
    cards out for anyone who dives
    during a game and then
    KICK THEIR SOCCER BALLS...then at least their dives would be legitimate
    -Kick Me-

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  12. Funny Anon.

    I would give them a yellow card for diving as a warning, or perhaps an orange card, or blue, if orange is possibly to be confused with a red card. The second dive would result in a red card.

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  13. Yes it makes sense to give the diving soccer player a yellow card first as a warning, but after the yellow card, he should be given a good kick in the groin. I'm tired of the antics of professional athletes who make ship loads of money and wine and itch about how tough the game was, who cares, get a real job!
    -Arm Chair Quarter Back NOT!-

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  14. I think you are looking for a fusion of soccer and martial arts, which I have thought for years could make an excellent video game.

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  15. The OJ one is great, as to the giant houses, why do you really need a house that big? rick b

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  16. Cheers, Rick.

    In regard to the mansions I suppose it has to do more with wants than needs.

    But, I hope for their sake that these folks are not mortgaged to the maximum of what they can afford.

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  17. "a fusion of soccer and martial arts"... now that, is something worth seeing!!!

    Hahahahaha....

    JME

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  18. I agree...if only I was a software engineer and game programmer.

    Thanks, Jimmy.

    Russ:)

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  19. I think GGM was referring to being "depraved", vs. "deprived". The Merriam-Webster defines "depraved" as "marked by corruption or evil". Calvinists use this term especially when making the case that natural man (and woman) is too corrupt to even seek a relationship with God. I don't get the sense that Augustine held to this belief. It sounds like we was far more optimistic, maybe even suggesting (just from what I read from your posts) that he believed even unsaved man to be capable of doing good. We certainly witness this today and throughout history.

    But as you said, whatever amount of goodness we have, it's not enough to earn us salvation, not that any amount of works could make up for even one sin. Only Jesus could do that, and we can only be covered by His atoning work by asking Him for forgiveness and surrendering our will to His.

    Good post Russ. Keep'em coming! :)

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  20. Thanks, Greg.

    I appreciate your support!

    GGM dealt with both it looks like:

    I don't see how we can consider "evil" as anything other than the deprivation of "good".

    The acts that we attribute to "evil" are easy enough to understand as simply the exercise of the depravity of the human heart that has not been restored to its created design and function.


    There is a debate concerning Augustine and his view which you mentioned.

    From my PhD with minor edits:

    Feinberg believes that Augustine was not the ancient equivalent of a modern compatibilist, but made the error of writing a theodicy, which featured free will and incompatibilist thought, and yet held to a theory of God’s sovereignty, which would necessitate some type of determinism. Feinberg (1994: 98). It would seem Augustine either made a logical error in accepting the ancient equivalents of incompatibilist human free choice and compatibilist sovereignty for God, or he simply failed to adequately explain the connection in particular whether or not his free will theodicy applied equally to pre-fall and post-fall humanity. Feinberg (1994: 98).

    Some argue that within his Free Will Theodicy, Augustine believed post-fall persons could freely follow or reject God without some type of determinism and yet his view on God and salvation required a type of determinism. Calvin disagreed with this objection it would seem from reading 'Bondage and Liberation of the Will', but Feinberg has a very good point.

    I can state that Augustine, at least from the English translations, was a very difficult author to read. Not because he was too complex, but just very difficult to understand. He was not a good writer in my opinion.

    Augustine may have been such a difficult writer to understand that he has been accepted as an incompatibilist when he was in fact a compatibilist.

    Definitions:

    Compatibilism, would agree with incompatibilism that God or any other being cannot cause by force or coercion any significantly free human action, but contrary to incompatibilism thinks that God or an outside force can simultaneously determine/will significantly free human actions. Feinberg (1994: 60).

    Hugh McCann (2001) explains there can be no independent determining conditions of human deeds, and human actions are committed voluntarily. McCann (2001: 115). This would be incompatibilism.

    CALVIN, JOHN (1543)(1996) The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, Translated by G.I. Davies, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.

    FEINBERG, JOHN S. (1994) The Many Faces of Evil, Grand Rapids, Zondervan Publishing House.

    MCCANN, HUGH J. (2001) ‘Sovereignty and Freedom: A Reply to Rowe’, in Faith and Philosophy, Volume 18, Number 1, January, pp. 110-116. Wilmore, Kentucky, Asbury College.

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  21. no offense to the gays out there, but that referee is the gayest of all soccer referees. He's literally floating on air LOL

    how gay could he be LOL

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  22. I did some research on him before and his name was Jorge José Emiliano dos Santos, and he used to referee state and national league matches in Brazil.

    Sadly he died as a result of AIDS in 1995.

    Thanks, Army.

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  23. As far as a fusion between soccer and the martial arts, "Shaolin Soccer" was hilarious, and the special effects were excellent!

    the diminished goodness in a creature is not replaced by non-existence, but by an actual corrupted nature within the person.

    That makes sense.

    From a Biblical perspective the remaining goodness left in human beings after corruption is not sufficient for salvation.

    Very well-said, and I've added that to my collection of quotes by you, Russ, in My Documents on my harddrive.

    Therefore even if privation is correct negatively, and everything that exists, no matter how evil it is, must contain some goodness, and evil does not exist on its own, human beings are still far from being perfectly morally good.

    So do you think that even Satan has some goodness?

    "Evil will be known by consequence, as being only a privation, or absence, of good." --South.
    Regarding the above quote that I found, it seems to me that privation is only true in a limited sense. A lack of light leaves darkness, because without light there is only darkness. A lack of God's moral influence leaves evil, because God is the only true source of good. Human corruption results in death, yet is that only because God has decreed it, or is that because anything that is not fully in communion/fellowship with God tends to self-destruct, corrode and fall apart? Privation is a taking away (i.e., being deprived), so if any of God is taken away from us (by our own choice), and if it is also true that it is God Who holds all things together, then can any part of creation still be held together when He Who holds it together is taken away in some part? God allows it to continue to be held together in a limited sense for a limited time, but eventually, it will be destroyed and replaced. Hence, dying to self, dying to the world, the new creature in Christ, our new incorruptible bodies, and the new Heaven and new Earth.

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  24. Thanks again, Jeff.

    That is good support.:)

    By Augustine's theory Satan would possess goodness. It makes sense that evil cannot completely overcome something God originally made perfectly good, or something made at all.

    However, Satan's goodness would be extremely limited, and I deduce it is probably primarily in the context of working with his demonic partners. In other words, he shows them a limited goodness in order that they support him and are not a kingdom divided.

    Satan and his demons not only lack good in a negative sense, but also are a positive evil against God and creation.

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  25. I know this is a little of topic, but It came to mind when I saw the big houses again.

    Evander holy field is 46 I believe, he has not fought in over a year, and he is fighting next month.

    All I know is, the guy he is fighting is 7 feet tall and weighs 325 pounds. I think some one will get a spanking. Rick b

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  26. Hey Rick,

    If you keep mentioning spanking in this article, those like that referee in the clip may perk up.

    Russ;)

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  27. Hi Russ,
    Evil exists. It is sometimes just as difficult to spot it and recognize it from good as it is to explain how it got here in the first place.
    One of the templates of evil is that it is not immediately diametrically different than good, but slightly different that grows into a different path.
    May the Lord who rescued us through death on the cross, keep us safe and far from evil.
    Blessings,
    Vicki

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  28. One of the templates of evil is that it is not immediately diametrically different than good, but slightly different that grows into a different path.

    I see your point Vicki, I think. At times an evil comes from a good and strays off into something increasingly wrong.

    This happens in this realm because it is a realm of corruption since the fall.

    Thanks.

    Russ:)

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  29. Augustine, what a guy. Imagine writing stuff all that time ago and having people debate it at length some 1700 years later. It amazes me.

    There is no doubt from my experience and I know that is not a good enough perspective as one of my Theology lecturers told me many years ago, some people are more depraved than others. Sometimes this could be due to the fact that their upbringing has not been all that good and beneficial. But then I have seen others who have had similar upbringings and they have turned out ok. One of the problems I have is when people use these life situations to justify the wrong that they have committed. It comes out in court cases all the time these days and is used as a means of lessening the punishment for the crime. Anyway just some thoughts.

    I perceive that we all have the same ability to do good or evil even under the same set of conditions. The choice is ours unless some external physical force is used although in perilous times many people did not to succumb to that external force.

    Catch you soon Russ.
    Russell.

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  30. Thanks, Russell.

    Excellent psychological/theological analysis.

    Russ:)

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  31. "Calvinists use this term especially when making the case that natural man (and woman) is too corrupt to even seek a relationship with God."

    Greg,

    Many "Calvinists" do indeed suggest that this is the case; but I don't necessarily agree. Paul was as depraved as anyone before Christ (there are really no degrees of depravity--you are or your not and the difference is Christ), yet he earnestly sought a relationship with God. The condemnation of the Pharisees is that they even believed that they had a relationship with God, but not according to truth.

    In my opinion, depravity doesn't negate the seeking of God but the finding of God (if you will). There are a countless number of "spiritual" people in this world who are seeking God. The problem is that the God they are seeking is simply a reflection of themselves or a being that they attempt to manipulate for their benefit. Depravity doesn't necessarily mean that people "hate" God so as to not want to have anything to do with Him. People don't "hate" God so much as they hate the Gospel.

    The nation of Israel is a good case in point. They are never said to not have wanted a relationship with God; they just wanted the relationship on their terms. And when their Messiah came, they didn't want to have anything to do with Him because they didn't believe that they needed Him--they were already "children" of God.

    I think MacArther has it wrong when he suggests that non-christians are almost foaming at the mouth with hatred toward God; or that they have absolutely no capacity to understand God and they want nothing to do with him. Saul/Paul shoots those theories down rather quickly.

    Depravity is simply the Adamic nature asserting itself against the Gospel. People have no problem with God and even can seek relationship with Him--but they don't want Christ.

    At least, this is how this self-proclaimed Calvinist (with qualifications, of course!) understands depravity. (And yes, I was using both depravity and deprivation in my earlier comments, as Russ suggested).

    Sometimes "Calvinists" give Calvin a bad name! :-)

    GGM

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  32. Thanks, Jason and Greg.

    a) Humanity is outside of God/Christ because of corrupt nature and sinful choices.

    b) Humanity does not respond to all the light/truth humanly possible.

    c) Humanity does not and cannot respond to sufficient light/truth to be elected.

    d) The elect are regenerated by the choice of God and freely believe in this process. Ephesians 2: 8-10.

    e) The unregenerate are left in their original state and will be fairly judged.

    Conclusion

    God is just in the process.

    This is a sovereignty approach to free will and determinism as opposed to a libertarian free will approach.

    I reason God chooses to regenerate in election and those persons will be persuaded via the Holy Spirit which also uses natural means which includes in most cases Scripture and preaching, to believe.

    No person would respond to enough spiritual light/truth in order for God to decide to save them, as in within a type of libertarian free will view. I reason God will save those he wills as he knows how each person will ultimately develop if regenerated. He will choose those he desires. Even though we are all sinners and hellbound outside of Christ, we do not all turn out the same when regenerated. The judgment seat of Christ at 2 Corinthians 5: 10 is an indicator of this fact for those that are regenerated.

    From my MPhil/PhD research and looking at Romans 1-3 and other parts of Scripture I reason persons cannot respond to the gospel or Christ/God on their own, I reason they can be judged by their lack of response to the light/truth that they could grasp, as this would be a sign of a love for darkness and lack of love/hatred of the true God.

    This would be the case for both the non-religious and religious outside of Christ. Those who are not elected face judgment in Revelation Chapter 20.

    Russ

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  33. Russ, who made the comic cover for you and can they make a fake movie poster for me? thanks, rick b

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  34. Jeff Jenkins of Thoughts and Theology made it and sent it to me as a surprise.

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  35. Yeah, Rick, that was me. All I did was change a couple words. As far as a movie poster, I would of course need more specifics.

    OK, Russ, I'm posting our recent Facebook conversation. It only allows me to copy one comment at a time, as they are in separate boxes, which is a pain.

    Russ Murray posted a link.
    thekingpin68©: Augustine and Privation revisited
    Source: thekingpin68.blogspo...
    [Kingpin comic cover]
    By Jeff Jenkins of
    http://jeffjenkinsocala.blogspot.com/

    Jeff Jenkins at 12:25am November 27
    Thanks, Russ, or should I say, TheKINGPIN68, of http://thekingpin68.blogspot.com/
    Enjoy.
    Signed,
    Your Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Jenkins.


    Russ Murray at 12:26am November 27
    Thanks,
    J. Jonah Jackson.


    Jeff Jenkins at 12:27am November 27
    And congrats on finally defeating your arch-nemesis, S&T, of:
    http://satireandtheology.blogspot.com/


    Jeff Jenkins at 12:27am November 27
    LOL


    Russ Murray at 12:28am November 27
    The wise guy is still trying to compete with me and still has more traffic!


    Jeff Jenkins at 12:31am November 27
    LMHO! The Kingpin will take him down!
    Next issue:
    The fight of the century:
    http://thekingpin68.blogspot.com/
    vs.
    http://satireandtheology.blogspot.com/
    Only one will survive!


    Russ Murray at 12:44am November 27
    Hmm, he uses my picture and has all the same degrees from the same places, and writes with less citations. That turkey could be tough. I still have more links.


    Jeff Jenkins at 12:49am November 27
    Of course, he is your clone, created to be your greatest rival. It is now officially Thanksgiving here in the U.S., so send that "turkey" over here, and we'll take care of him for ya!


    Russ Murray at 12:53am November 27
    We have American friends and family and so on Saturday we are having folks over for US thanksgiving chicken. I can play the turkey.


    Jeff Jenkins at 1:14am November 27
    LOL! Turkey or Ham is standard, but chicken? That's a poor man's low-budget Thanksgiving!
    Someone on Facebook the other day was talking about turducken, which is turkey stuffed with a de-boned duck, stuffed with a de-boned chicken. From my research, it apparently takes a lot of work, but people say it tastes fantastic.
    In Miami, many Cubans would have a pig roast (roasting the whole pig), though I think that occurs more often on Christmas. It would take all day to roast in a pit. I went to a Cuban birthday party the last time I went back to visit Miami, and they had a pig roast there, and it was absolutely delicious. Of course, they also had the very loud Cuban music with huge speakers, Cuban dancing, and plenty of people, all held in a small back yard---all of which is common practice.


    Russ Murray at 1:15am November 27
    Chicken costs the same here and tastes better.:)


    Jeff Jenkins at 1:30am November 27
    Realistically, it's not so much a cost issue as a tradition and habit and perception issue. Many Americans feel that its not really Thanksgiving without the turkey and all the trimmings, because they have grown accustomed to eating turkey for Thanksgiving. Chicken is something you eat the rest of the year, but turkey is mainly eaten on Thanksgiving and Christmas. Our family had chicken one year for Thanksgiving, as I recall, and it was a huge disappointment to me and some others. Chicken just doesn't seem special. However, since you are not American, you have an excuse.


    Russ Murray at 1:33am November 27
    Chicken tastes better. Thanks Colonel.


    Russ Murray at 1:34am November 27
    Ever notice there is no Kansas Fried Turkey franchises?


    Jeff Jenkins at 1:42am November 27
    I admit that turkey is more dry, but chicken is far more common.
    Chicken may taste better, which is why I'll eat it 363 days of the year, and I'll eat turkey 2 days of the year, which makes the turkey special. Like I said, turkey is reserved mainly for Thanksgiving and Christmas, so that's why there's no 'Kansas Fried Turkey' franchises. So there. Ha.
    Um, don't hold me to eating chicken for 363 days...


    Russ Murray at 1:44am November 27
    I am too chicken to eat turkey.


    Jeff Jenkins at 1:53am November 27
    Ha!
    Man, all these comments wasted on Facebook, when they could have been on your blog site instead. We could have had a good long 'Turkey vs. Chicken' debate in your blog comments. Problem is, it's very late here, and I need to get ready for bed; and tomorrow I'll be gone most of the day, so I probably won't be on the computer much. Ah, well, such is life...


    Russ Murray at 1:55am November 27
    Copy and paste the thread on thk68!
    ---------------------------------

    And so I have now done so, silly as it feels. It would have been better to have each one as a separate comment here, but I'm not about to copy and paste each one separately, and have to type in a Word Verification for each one!

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  36. Thanks Jeff, I am a chicken when it comes to eating turkey, and a turkey when it comes to asking for comments.;)

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  37. Russ and Russ' readers, check this out! (Sorry Russ, not related to what you have written. I'll catch up later).

    Hi Sean and Christine.

    I mentioned in an earlier communication to the two of you that I had noticed "Blogger" was looking into a possible violation of the user agreement on a blog I noted on Christine's blog. The blog on Talk Wisdom is the Natural Born Citizen blog that discusses Danny Bickel's misconduct. I believe both of you received this email.

    I decided to copy the text in the blog to Microsoft Word and paste it into the compose window of my comcast email. After selecting several email addresses (always including my own) I sent the message. I never received mine. My wife never received hers. I checked the sent mail folder. The email appears in my sent mail folder. However, one hour later, I nor my wife have received this email.

    Don Wildman of the American Family Association reported a few months ago that Google was about to launch a campaign to filter out any effort to communicate any information that will reflect poorly on 'Barry Soetoro'.

    Here is how to conduct a test to see if this happens to you.

    Copy the page I had passed the warning to you on earlier to a word processing program (i.e. Microsoft Word). Then, copy that into your email, 'compose' window and send it to yourself and save it to 'sent mail'. You will notice that you receive it in 'sent mail' but it will not arrive in your inbox.

    I filed a complaint with the FCC, online tonight.
    Jim

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  38. Russ,
    Well, I take it back. The essence of what I wrote just prior to this comment does meet the criteria for corruption. On A Global Scale!

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  39. Russ,
    Explaination: "Barry Soetoro" is the name Barak used in Indonesia. I used this name as code because, I was afraid my email would be filterred again if I used Barak Obama.

    By the way, I sent the same message of the blogger being investigated to you as well. Did you receive it?
    Jim

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  40. I think I did receive your email Jim, but I am not certain.

    It sounds familiar, but there have been many Obama emails.

    Cheers.

    Russ:)

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  41. Russ,
    I sent it to you 9 hours ago from the current Eastern Time of 7:45am.

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