Monday, September 08, 2008

The religious group that wakes me up in the morning

Greece: trekeath.com

The religious group that wakes me up in the morning

Yes, wakes is a proper English word.

wakes

From the rate my blog vote in the previous article. The winners:

Wunderbar 4

This blog is better than running from Chuck Norris 4 (From Rick)

This post is dedicated to the friendly Jehovah's Witnesses that leave a message on my phone at least once a month. They call in the morning and wake me up temporarily from my CPAP assisted sleep. They invite me to a Bible study. I had a phone discussion with a nice lady representative one day and turned the tables on her and gave her a short lecture on why her version of a free will theodicy does not work. She invited me to meet with her elders and I assured her that although I would be nice, I was quite busy and in the end her elders would not want me to be part of their church.

I am not a prophet, but I would be being willing to predict that event. I am not a gambler, but I am willing to bet on that taking place.

I hope the Jehovah's Witnesses are calling some Latter-day Saints and leave a message on their answering machines. The Jehovah's Witnesses should call some local LDS churches and then the Mormons can send some missionaries down to the Kingdom Hall and talk shop.

But first...some short humour.

Jeff Jenkins from Thoughts and Theology

Presents in my links this film several weeks ago. I did not produce the video and I am not vouching 100% for its historical accuracy, but it does present an interesting historical review of an important non-Christian religious movement.

The video is produced by this group:

Good News

Walter Martin was one of the top scholars in regard to the Jehovah's Witnesses as a non-Christian movement.

He writes that Charles Taze Russell was the founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The name Jehovah's Witnesses was taken in 1931 to differentiate from the Watchtower organization run by Russell's successor Judge Rutherford. Martin (1965)(1997: 79). The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society was founded in 1896. Martin (1965)(1997: 80). Russell had been teaching previously.

John Ankerberg and John Weldon state Charles Taze Russell's dates of birth and death (1852-1916). The Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be the only organization in the world through which Jehovah God operates and supplies a true Biblical interpretation. Ankerberg and Weldon (1999: 127).

Jesus described his church in Matthew 16: 18. In Acts, Peter initially was the primary Apostle, but the primary focus soon moved to Paul in the latter part of Acts. Paul also wrote and/or had scribes write more books of the New Testament than did Peter.

The true church Jesus described in Matthew 16: 18 is the Church of Jesus Christ. In the early stages it could be stated that both Peter and Paul led aspects of the early Church, which was one Church. Today there is still one Church that is led through various persons and denominations. Where there is essential Christian doctrine taught, believed and lived with persons indwelled with the Holy Spirit, there is the Church of Jesus Christ. There is sin and error present in the Church in this present realm, and there is no one faultless Christian leader or faultless Christian movement as sin influences all.

There is also no one true denomination at the expense of all others. There may possibly be one Christian denomination with better Biblical and systematic theology than others, but this does not make it the true Church and all the others false.

From:
http://www.waltermartin.com/cults.html
The Deity of Jesus Christ

Throughout the entire content of inspired Scripture the fact of Christ’s identity is clearly taught. He is revealed as Jehovah God in human form (Isaiah 9:6; Micah 5:2; Isaiah 7:14; John 1:14; 8:58; 17:5 [cf. Exodus 3:14]; Hebrews 1:3; Philippians 2:11; Colossians 2:9; and Revelation 1:8, 17–18; etc.). The deity of Jesus Christ is one of the cornerstones of Christianity, and as such has been attacked more vigorously throughout the ages than any other single doctrine of the Christian faith. Adhering to the old Arian heresy of the fourth century A.D., which Athanasius the great church Father refuted in his famous essay “On the Incarnation of the Word,” many individuals and all cults steadfastly deny the equality of Jesus Christ with God the Father, and, consequently, the Triune deity. Jehovah’s Witnesses, as has been observed, are no exception to this infamous rule. However, the testimony of the Scriptures stands sure, and the above mentioned references alone put to silence forever this blasphemous heresy, which in the power of Satan himself deceives many with its “deceitful handling of the Word of God.”

The deity of Christ, then, is a prime answer to Jehovah’s Witnesses, for if the Trinity is a reality, which it is, if Jesus and Jehovah are “One” and the same, then the whole framework of the cult collapses into a heap of shattered, disconnected doctrines incapable of even a semblance of congruity. We will now consider the verses in question, and their bearing on the matter.

Refutation of Watchtower Theology in Regard to the Triune Deity

One of the greatest doctrines of the Scriptures is that of the Triune Godhead or the nature of God himself. To say that this doctrine is a “mystery” is indeed inconclusive, and no informed minister would explain the implications of the doctrine in such abstract terms. Jehovah’s Witnesses accuse “the clergy” of doing just that, however, and it is unfortunate to note that they are, as usual, guilty of misstatement in the presentation of the facts and even in their definition of what Christian clergymen believe the Deity to be.

First of all, Christian ministers and Christian laypersons do not believe that there are “three gods in one” (Let God Be True, 100), but do believe that there are three Persons all of the same Substance—coequal, coexistent, and coeternal. There is ample ground for this belief in the Scriptures, where plurality in the Godhead is very strongly intimated if not expressly declared.

The Resurrection of Christ

Jehovah’s Witnesses, as has been observed, deny the bodily resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ and claim instead that He was raised a “divine spirit being” or as an “invisible spirit creature.” They answer the objection that He appeared in human form by asserting that He simply took human forms as He needed them, which enabled Him to be seen, for as the Logos He would have been invisible to the human eye. In short, Jesus did not appear in the same form that hung upon the cross since that body either “dissolved into gases or is preserved somewhere as the grand memorial of God’s love”. This, in spite of Paul’s direct refutation in 1 Timothy 2:5, where he calls “the man Christ Jesus” our only mediator—some thirty years after the resurrection!

The Scriptures, however, tell a completely different story, as will be evident when their testimony is considered. Christ himself prophesied His own bodily resurrection, and John tells us “He spake of the temple of His body” (John 2:21).


What can be understood from reading the material from the site where Martin's family presents portions of his work, and the Martin and Ankerberg and Weldon texts are that Jehovah's Witnesses deny the deity of Christ, the Trinity, and the resurrection of Christ. There are other errors as well.

For one to truly know God he or she must believe in the deity of Christ. Christ as infinite God and perfect finite man, outlasted human finite sin, covered sins and paid the penalty for the sins of fallen humanity. This is the atonement.

To accept Christ as deity, the Holy Spirit as deity (Matthew 28: 19-20, Acts 5) and the Father as deity is to understand the New Testament nature of God is basic terms.

One God, one nature and substance with three distinctions.

To accept the Biblical resurrection of Christ, is to accept the predictive resurrection teaching of Christ in John 2: 19, descriptions of Jesus resurrection in the Gospels, and to accept Paul's teaching on resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15. Note, I stated the Gospels, but even if the ending of Mark (16: 9-20) is viewed as questionable because it is missing in two of the oldest minority Alexandrian texts, Codex Vaticanus (B) and Codex Sinaiticus (Sin.), Mark 16: 1-8, makes it clear Christ was risen. The ending is present in the majority Byzantine texts, and it is possible that Mark did indeed write it or it was written by another inspired scribe.


As noted in comments the description of the minority Alexandrian texts and majority Byzantine texts is in general terms, please see comments.

ANKERBERG, JOHN AND JOHN WELDON (1999) Encyclopedia of Cults and New Religions, Eugene, Oregon, Harvest House Publishers.

MARTIN, WALTER (1965)(1997) The Kingdom of The Cults, Minneapolis, Bethany House Publishers.


47 comments:

  1. Perhaps you should get the Chuck Norris Karate Kommandos comic book series...

    ReplyDelete
  2. Chucky, Chuck should do a team-up with Batman.

    Why can't the Witnesses call me in the afternoon or evening?

    Why does Blogger sometimes revert to an old version of a post in progress?

    ReplyDelete
  3. I forgot the Karate Kommandos was also a Saturday-morning cartoon.

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  4. That Karate Kommandos page is hilarious!

    ReplyDelete
  5. ...turned the tables on her and gave her a short lecture on why her version of a free will theodicy does not work. She invited me to meet with her elders and I assured her that although I would be nice, I was quite busy and in the end her elders would not want me to be part of their church.

    Good job!

    I hope the Jehovah's Witnesses are calling some Latter-Day Saints and leave a message on their answering machines. The Jehovah's Witnesses should call some local LDS churches and then the Mormons can send some missionaries down to the Kingdom Hall and talk shop.

    LOL! Funny!


    I have JWs come to my door on a regular basis, in the mid-mornings. I have never had one call me, nor have I heard of that before. Maybe they don't do that in the U.S., I don't know. I have also never had a Mormon come to my door. Those Mormons are lagging behind!

    Chuck Norris vs. Bear:
    If Chuck Norris were a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu specialist, that bear would've tapped out!

    Jeff Jenkins from Thoughts and Theology in my links also posted this film several weeks ago.

    Hey, do I steal YOUR stuff? (LOL!)

    ...and I am not vouching 100% for its historical accuracy...

    And you're dissin' my videos to boot?! Man!... (LOL)

    "In 1879, Russell, then 27 years of age, was so passionately convinced these prophetic dates were given by God..."

    Hey, they're talkin' about you, Russ!


    None of the Apostles, nor Jesus, nor the book of Revelation, gives any specific dates as to the End Times.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Thanks, Jeff, but I just did not publish the clip like you did. I added my own commentary.;)

    Jeff, Norris is funny in a cartoon and against a bear. Norris is a real good guy who is also funny.

    ReplyDelete
  7. a question: why on the comic's cover is Chuck Norris' hair orange
    and inside it's yellow?

    i'm SO confused!!! help me!!!



    --zomba d00d

    ReplyDelete
  8. Hmm, how about they are lazy publishers.

    Thanks, Zombie, that will never be a LDS or JW.

    ReplyDelete
  9. LDS = Lotsa Deceived Suckers?
    -history seems to support that.

    hmmm...


    zombie

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  10. Sadly, as much as I have liked persons in the LDS and Watchtower, I must admit I reason persons who strongly submit to both groups are very deceived.

    May God have mercy on them, and us.

    Thanks, Zombie.

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  11. I haven't heard of religious groups telephoning--cold calling kind of thing in England. However we do get JW door knocking fairly recently. I have been added to their list however, of not to come to my door. If they find its a hopeless case as far finding a potential convert, they put you on a list to not go any longer.

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  12. Well, I am tired now, and I hope they do not call me this morning.

    I am curious if the Witnesses would act differently if I stated I was a Latter-Day Saint as opposed to a Christian.

    I hope all is well, Deejay.

    Russ;)

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  13. I've discovered in my very infrequent visitations that both the Jehovah Witness and Mormon "missionary" that come to my door don't really know what their "faith" teaches. Have you all experienced the same thing? It almost seems as if the very immature followers are the ones sent out door-to-door; the ones who can speak the basic "Christian" language without really knowing the details of their own faith.

    Everytime I've brought up specific topics with either group like the diety of Christ, the Trinity, the "prophet" Joseph Smith, the relation between Jesus and Lucifer, etc., they always invite me to their "church" so that an elder can speak with me. When I press them on some of these issues, they tend to get a "martyr-complex" and leave in a huff. I just get the impression that they are not very (if at all) familiar with the doctrines of their faith. Sometimes I feel like it's not even worth my time to engage these folks, but then I realize that even if I only plant a seed maybe the Lord will lead someone else to them at the right time.

    BTW, Steven Segal would have slapped that bear silly...or maybe he would have just started running around like a girl causing the bear to laugh itself to death! :-)

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  14. You could have saved all of that by simply being one of Jehovah's Witnesses and doing yourself a favor.


    This whole history of the Witness movement, Walter Martin, Ankerberg stuff is ridiculous. They focus on Russell and dates and stuff like that which is totally irrelevant to the religion.

    What is so difficult about following the Bible and looking to the kingdom that is ruled by Christ?

    ReplyDelete
  15. Thanks, Jeff, but I just did not publish the clip like you did. I added my own commentary.;)

    Ha ha.

    LDS = Lotsa Deceived Suckers?

    LOL! Sadly true. They are brainwashed.

    Well, I am tired now, and I hope they do not call me this morning.

    I have telemarketers call me several times daily (even at work). A few times, on my answering machine, I have left messages directed toward telemarketers, saying such things as, in 3 seconds an electric current will be sent through the phone, or, an electronic device is attached to this phone that can trace their address, or, I am busy feeding my pit bull that only eats raw meat, and other such silly stuff. I sometimes preface the recorded message with, "If you are a telemarketer..." Many times they have hung up before my message finished.

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  16. My Greek professor in college told us that if you can properly explain why the second instance of the word "theos" (God) in John 1:1 does not have the definite article---that is the reference JW's use to claim that Jesus was not divine---then they might run away scared, and definitely will never bother you again.

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  17. Thanks, GGM.

    I would reason it is very difficult to be well-educated in the field of religious studies when one has a closed mind and primarily only studies the writings of one group.

    As Christians we are wise to be familiar with a wide range of teachings, but to stay Bible-based.

    Russ:)

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  18. You could have saved all of that by simply being one of Jehovah's Witnesses and doing yourself a favor.

    No thanks, Ronde. By God's grace I understand the Jehovah's Witnesses as a false religion, and false Christianity that distorts the Bible.

    This whole history of the Witness movement, Walter Martin, Ankerberg stuff is ridiculous. They focus on Russell and dates and stuff like that which is totally irrelevant to the religion.

    How convenient as Martin, Ankerberg and Weldon provide the scholarship to demonstrate the Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christian. Sure, we should avoid all the critics of the Watchtower and just do what the Watchtower tells us to... or should we do what the Latter-Day Saints in Salt Lake City tell us to do? They both claim to be the true organization of God and Christ.

    No, I will study the Bible, theology, and philosophy independently of any group demanding their own way.

    I notice that both times I have done an article on Jehovah's Witnesses, I receive a comment from a Watchtower supporter rather quickly. I am glad my blog is so important.;)

    What is so difficult about following the Bible and looking to the kingdom that is ruled by Christ?

    The Watchtower distorts the Bible, and I can see this because I am willing to study a wide-range of literature and not just what the Watchtower (or the Latter-Day Saints) would like me to read.

    Ronde, I pray now that the Lord will help you to understand the Scripture in its context, apart from what any one group in telling you. In Jesus' name, amen.

    Russ:)

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  19. Okay Jeff, here is another opportunity for you to debate.

    Thanks friend.

    Russ;)

    ReplyDelete
  20. Hi,
    Just a quick comment about Mark 16:9-20: it's not just in the majority (Byzantine) text. This passage is also found in the Western, Caesarean, and Alexandrian text-types, with unique variants in each text-type (indicating that in each text-type, the passage was not simply adopted from a neighboring text-type).

    So the question is -- after we consider things like the early (100's) patristic attestation for the passage (from Justin, Tatian, Irenaeus) and the fact that only two Alexandrian MSS end the text of Mark at 16:8, and that one of those two has a prolonged blank space after 16:8 and the other one doesn't have its original pages from Mk. 14:54 to Lk. 1;56 -- whether it is more likely that the early Alexandrian copyists somehow mistakenly lost or removed these 12 verses, or that all the other copyists, from Ireland to Edessa, somehow mistakenly accepted their insertion.

    You're invited to read more about it at
    www.curtisvillechristian.org/MarkOne.html

    Yours in Christ,

    James Snapp, Jr.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Hi,
    Just a quick comment about Mark 16:9-20: it's not just in the majority (Byzantine) text. This passage is also found in the Western, Caesarean, and Alexandrian text-types, with unique variants in each text-type (indicating that in each text-type, the passage was not simply adopted from a neighboring text-type).


    Yes, thanks James, I realize that fact and did not state that it was only found in the Byzantine text. I realized that when I wrote the article. These blog articles are not exhaustive and I was writing in general terms. I need to limit details in order to keep most readers happy, but you make a good point, and I design my blogs to add more information in comments.

    Site

    The External Evidences

    Looking first to the Greek witness, we see that it stacks up heavily in favour of the authenticity of these verses. Bruce Terry1 presents the following breakdown:

    In Favour of Mark 16:9-20

    Codex Alexandrinus (A) - (5th c. uncial, Byzantine in Gospels)

    Ephraemi Rescriptus (C) - (5th c. uncial, Alexandrian)

    Codex Bezae Cantabrigiensis (D) - (5th/6th c. uncial, Western)

    K (9th c. uncial, Byzantine)

    W (5th c. uncial, generally thought to be Caesarean in Mark 5:31-16:20)

    X (10th c. uncial, Alexandrian)

    Delta (9th c. uncial, Alexandrian)

    Theta (9th c. uncial, Caesarean)

    Pi (9th c. uncial, Byzantine)

    f1 and f13 (total of 16 Caesarean texts, 11th-14th c.)

    28 (11th c. miniscule, Caesarean)

    33 (9th c. miniscule, Alexandrian)

    565 (9th c. miniscule, Caesarean)

    700 (11th c. miniscule, Caesarean)

    892 (9th c. miniscule, Alexandrian)

    1010 (12th c. miniscule, Byzantine)

    The Byzantine textual set

    Some of the Greek lectionaries

    Opposed to Mark 16:9-20

    Codex Sinaiticus (A) - (4th c. uncial, Alexandrian)

    Codex Vaticanus (B) - (4th c. uncial, Alexandrian)

    304 (12th c. miniscule, Byzantine)2

    2386 (11th c. miniscule, Byzantine)

    Most of the Greek lectionaries3
    Further, there is an alternate ending which is found appended after v. 8 in a few manuscripts which reads, "But they reported briefly to Peter [and] those around [him] all that they had been told. And after this, Jesus himself also sent out through them, from east even to west, the sacred and imperishable preached message of eternal salvation. Amen." This reading is found in:

    L (8th c. uncial, Alexandrian)

    Psi (8th/9th c. uncial, Alexandrian)

    099 (7th c. uncial, Alexandrian)

    0112 (6th/7th c. uncial, a fragment of uncial 083)

    The margin of 274 (10th c. cursive, Byzantine)

    579 (13th c. cursive, Alexandrian)

    One Greek lectionary (1602, a Greek/Sahidic Coptic diglot)4


    whether it is more likely that the early Alexandrian copyists somehow mistakenly lost or removed these 12verses, or that all the other copyists, from Ireland to Edessa, somehow mistakenly accepted their insertion.

    That is the debate, thanks James.

    Russ:)

    ReplyDelete
  22. Thanks, Jake.

    From:

    Site

    Jehovah's Witnesses deny the deity of Christ, and claim that John 1:1 merely calls him “a god,” but not full deity. They rest their case on three facts of Greek grammar:

    There is no such word as "a" or "an" in Greek, so we sometimes have to add "a" to translate into English, (Acts 28:6).

    The Greek word used here (theos) has two meanings: usually the supreme God revealed in Scripture, but sometimes lesser beings like the gods of Greek mythology.

    The Greek word "the" is often attached to the word "God" or theos, but it does not appear in John 1:1. Hiding behind the Witness rendering of the verse is an unspoken equation: God + "the" (ho theos) = Jehovah, the Almighty God, God - "the" (theos) = a created being with divine qualities. Witnesses claim that the apostle John deliberately omitted a "the" in the final phrase to show the difference between God and the Word. As the New World Translation (p. 775) explains:

    John's inspired writings and those of his fellow disciples show what the true idea is, namely, the Word or Logos is not God or the God, but is the Son of God, and hence is a god. That is why, at John 1:1,2, the apostle refers to God as the God and to the Word or Logos as a god, to show the difference between the Two.
    Is this the proper translation?

    No. The equation underlying the Witness rendering breaks down within a few verses. John 1:18 contains theos twice, without “the” either time. According to Watchtower assumptions, we would expect to translate both as “god” or “a god.” Instead, the New World Translation says "God" the first time and "god" the second time. The context overrules their rule.

    Why did John choose not to put “the” on the word “God”?

    To show which word was the subject of the sentence. In English, we can recognize the subject of a sentence by looking at word order. In Greek, we must look at the word endings. John 1:1 is trickier than most verses, because both “God” (theos) and “Word” (logos) have the same ending. The usual way to mark off the subject clearly was to add “the” to the subject and leave it off the direct object. That is precisely what John did here.

    To conform to standard Greek grammar. E.C. Colwell demonstrated in an article in the Journal of Biblical Literature in 1933 that it was normal practice to omit "the" in this type of sentence. John was simply using good grammar, and making it clear that he intended to say, “The Word was God” rather than “God was the Word,” a statement with some theological drawbacks. John constructed his sentence in the one way that would preserve proper grammar and sound doctrine, declaring that “the Word was God.”

    Author: Dr. John Bechtle

    ReplyDelete
  23. Interesting. I am very surprised. Palin is a star.

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    ReplyDelete
  24. Interesting. I am very surprised. Palin is a star.

    Latest Polls


    Cool, very helpful information. Thanks, Russ!

    ReplyDelete
  25. Okay Jeff, here is another opportunity for you to debate.

    Thanks friend.

    Russ;)


    Boy, lately, it seems you just like to push me into the fray and throw me to the lions!

    More and more I'm seeing that debating often merely ends up in angry emotions. Though intellectual debate can be educational, regeneration takes place in the heart, not in the intellect.

    Nevertheless, I am happy to offer some helpful information.

    "One important passage they use is Colossians 1:15; "Who [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:" Seen through the Watchtower's presupposition that Christ is a created being, the "firstborn" of this passage means "first created."

    "Linguistic Context

    The argument that "firstborn" means "firstcreated" in Col. 1:15 can seem true when one considers the pool of meaning for the word (although "first offspring" would better reflect the meaning of the Greek word used here: prototokos). "First created" is one of the many, and even more literal meanings of the word. The problem is that the context clearly shows that "first created" was not Paul's intended meaning in Colossians.

    Paul uses the same basic word for "all things" in vv.16-17 as he used in his expression "every creature" (all creation) in v.15. Syntactically then, Paul says Jesus existed before (v. 17), created (v.16) and sustains (v.17) that set of things of which he is the "first born" (v.15), i.e., the set of "all creation." This agrees with John, who says, "In the beginning was the Word (literal Greek "...was existing the Word." John's use of the imperfect tense shows continuous duration of existence in the past).... All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made" (John 1:1,3).

    If Paul had meant "first created" when he wrote prototokos, at Col. 1:15, then his following statements make Christ Himself a part of those very things which Paul says Christ created and sustains, and before which He existed.

    Watchtower leaders themselves evidently understand this fact and have felt the need to resolve the logical conflict. To justify their position, the Watchtower, in its New World Translation (NWT) of the Scriptures, does violence to the verses that follow. The word "other" is inserted four times, to alter their meaning: "Because by means of him all (other) things were created....he is before all (other) things" etc. (Colossians 1:16, 17, NWT). This is notably different from what the Apostle Paul actually wrote, an "all" inclusive of everything ever created. There is no "other" in vv. 16 and 17 in the Greek text, either latent or explicit, and there is no way to justify its insertion. It is scholastic dishonesty.

    So then what does prototokos mean if not "first created?" The best way to determine this is to choose from the word's pool of meaning the idea that flows best with what Paul is saying. He uses the word again in v. 18, where he also provides forceful evidence of his intended meaning with the words, "that in all things He might have the preeminence." The literary context shows Paul's usage of prototokos in Colossians 1 refers to Christ's supremacy.

    Historical Context

    The historical context bears out this conclusion as well. There is a strong association of the firstborn child with preeminence and inheritance in Hebrew culture (W.E. Vine, Merril Unger, Wm. Whice, Jr., eds., Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, p. 240-1). The firstborn male inherited a double portion of his father's estate and became the new leader at his father's death (Deuteronomy 21:15-17). His right of primogeniture made him preeminent in his family.

    The term gradually came to refer to the one who was the heir and had the right to rule whether or not he was literally the first one born ("first created"). The most striking example of this is in the Old Testament from where the idea originally derived. Genesis 41:51-52 says, "And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Mannasseh:...and the name of the second called he Ephraim..." Yet in contrast to this, speaking in Jeremiah God says, "For I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Evidently, there is more to the term "firstborn" than the first offspring.

    Additional support is found in the fact that the Greek word prototokos occurs nine times in the New Testament _ ten times if you include the related word for "birthright" (prototokia). Seven of these nine times the word refers to Christ. Out of these seven only two refer to Christ as one who is firstborn in a physically literal sense, and these refer to Him being Mary's firstborn son (Matthew 1:25; Luke 2:7). Otherwise the use is obviously one of preeminence and cannot refer to some presupposed creation (e.g. Romans 8:29; Revelation 1:5). Once this word even refers to believers as belonging to "the church of the firstborn ones" (literal Greek, Hebrews 12:23). Again, the emphasis here is on preeminence and privilege, not order of creation."
    (http://www.watchman.org/jw/1stborn2.htm)

    Notice that if you plug in "first created" for following verse, to read, "first created from the dead," it then becomes meaningless:
    "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." (Colossians 1:18)
    Therefore, there must be more to the idea of "firstbornness."

    Another example of "firstborn" meaning "preeminent:"
    "They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." (Jeremiah 31:9, KJV)

    ReplyDelete
  26. Jesus said, "I am the gate; whoever enters through Me will be saved." (John 10:9a, NIV)

    Christ's submission to the Father was something He did voluntarily; it was His position. His position and His essence are two different things. Christ is God (the Son), but He chose to submit Himself to the Father, to humility, to becoming a man, and to death---He did all this for our sake, so that we might live with Him forever.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Boy, lately, it seems you just like to push me into the fray and throw me to the lions!

    No, I was attempting to throw you to the Grizzlies, but Chuck Norris stepped in for you.

    The literary context shows Paul's usage of prototokos in Colossians 1 refers to Christ's supremacy.

    The term gradually came to refer to the one who was the heir and had the right to rule whether or not he was literally the first one born ("first created").

    Right, this is well-established in many commentaries and works.

    Preeminence is a key concept related to the word.

    Thanks for the comments, Jeff.

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  28. Jesus is the same God as Yahweh (arguably incorrectly pronounced as 'Jehovah'):
    "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father." (John 14:9)

    Christ is the exact representation of the Father:
    "He is the radiance of His glory, the exact expression of His nature, and He sustains all things by His powerful word." (Hebrews 1:3)

    Jesus was Yahweh God incarnate (in flesh):
    "No one has ever seen God. The One and Only Son — the One who is at the Father's side — He has revealed Him." (John 1:18)

    God says that creatures (including angels) should not be worshiped. Yet the angels worship Jesus! Therefore, Jesus cannot be Michael the Archangel or a created, 'lesser' god:
    "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." (Exodus 20:4)

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  29. No, I was attempting to throw you to the Grizzlies, but Chuck Norris stepped in for you.

    LOL!

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  30. Jeff and readers, please stay tuned.

    I am working on a related article for publishing tonight on satire and theology in my links.

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  31. "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." (Genesis 9:3-4)

    The JW rule against blood transfusion is not a major doctrinal issue, but rather, I think, a tactic by Satan to take the focus off the main issue, as well as one more thing to add to their legalistic works, by which they attempt to obtain salvation.

    Nevertheless, I would just like to point out that, when the Bible refers to "eating blood," it refers to how we are to eat animals, not people. We are to eat animals after killing them, NOT while they are still alive (which would be very cruel), and after the blood has been drained. If verse 4 above were referring to people, then verse 3 would be advocating CANNIBALISM!

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  32. Nevertheless, I would just like to point out that, when the Bible refers to "eating blood," it refers to how we are to eat animals, not people. We are to eat animals after killing them, NOT while they are still alive (which would be very cruel), and after the blood has been drained.

    So does this mean the Scots are violating this command when they eat "black pudding"? I ate some myself at a dinner served by thekingpin68's cousin, along with haggis.

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  33. Chuck, that is a very good question.

    I do not know if I ate the pudding but I ate the haggis. A question would be since we are not under the Mosaic Law, but should consider its principles; Is black (blood) pudding unhealthy scientifically because of the blood content?

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  34. "The Bible contains other important instructions which medical science has only recently come to understand. Moses was inspired to record that blood and fat, even of clean animals, were not to be consumed as human food (Leviticus 3:17; 7:23-26; Genesis 9:4), yet in some cultures eating blood sausage, eating "fatback" and mixing blood and milk are common practices. The blood of animals can contain bacteria and viruses that transmit disease. This important biblical prohibition was designed to prevent the spread of disease."

    from Bible Principles of Health

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  35. I do not disagree with you Jeff. But I think Chuck and I would wonder if indeed black (blood) pudding is a health risk. How the blood is cooked may make a difference. Do modern cooking techniques make it safer or is it a very unhealthy product to eat based on Hebrew Biblical law and scientific evidence?

    From reading a bit on the web, I have found nothing conclusive.

    I am not going to spend much time on the issue. Cheers.

    Russ:)

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  36. We have had Jehovah Witnesses as well as Mormons coming to our door for as long as i can remember. We are always friendly when speaking to them. But we found out that they cannot take NO for an answer. The Mormons were so relentless in wanting to set down with us so they could try to persuade us of their belief.

    We told them upfront that because they were persistant that we would go ahead and meet with them, but we also made sure to let them know that once they were done having sessions with us we would not be converted. But they insisted any ways. So for the next 13 weeks they came into our home and discussed all their beliefs and opened the scriptures with us as well as the Book of Mormon.

    We had a nice time with them. They discussed and we discussed they asked questions and we asked questions. Well any ways to make a long story short when the 13 weeks was up and they were ready to take us to their church as to join we nicely told them NO! and that we were not interested, and that they had not persuaded us of their beliefs. They were quite angry to say the least LOL! They were not used to being turned down i guess after 13 weeks of their inspirational teachings.

    Hopefully they learned after us that there are Christians out there that have a passionate love for the Word of God and that they hold firm to their beliefs. Being Bull dogs for Jesus and not Joseph Smith was where we stood! That was our position and i think they were surprised and maybe angry/discouraged a bit. But we had warned them upfront and they didn't want to listen.

    So yeah! i guess they did waste their time on us! LOL! I will have to admit though that we did learn alot about the Mormon belief. But hopefully they learned alot from the Christians for Jesus those 13 weeks we were together. God Bless you Russ Tamela

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  37. Thanks, Tamela.

    With our Mennonite young adults group back in the 1990's I sat through a Bahai (Bahá'í) faith presentation at their house. Our young adults leaders tried to gag order me, but they were just jealous.;) I ended up upsetting the Bahai leader...boo hoo. I was nice about it, but simply pointed out that the major religions had too many differences concerning the nature of God and key doctrines to be placed under the umbrella of one religion, without major contradictions.

    Around the same time I had a nice older lady trying to convert me to the Jehovah's Witnesses for a few years. She would come over and I would keep teaching her from the commentaries and even Greek I would look up. She would ask me if I was going to convert and I would ask her half seriously if she was going to convert..

    I will personally not just sit through the Bahai kind of presentation anymore. If someone wants to come over they are going to have to share the stage and debate.

    Russ:)

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  38. I agree that there needs to be equal time to share the stage. and we will make that very clear to them now.
    Tamela

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  39. Tamela,

    when the 13 weeks was up and they were ready to take us to their church as to join we nicely told them NO! and that we were not interested, and that they had not persuaded us of their beliefs. They were quite angry to say the least LOL! They were not used to being turned down i guess after 13 weeks of their inspirational teachings.

    LOL! LOVE it!

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  40. Russ,

    I sat through a Bahai (Bahá'í) faith presentation at their house. Our young adults leaders tried to gag order me, but they were just jealous.;) I ended up upsetting the Bahai leader...boo hoo. I was nice about it, but simply pointed out that the major religions had too many differences concerning the nature of God and key doctrines to be placed under the umbrella of one religion, without major contradictions.

    Around the same time I had a nice older lady trying to convert me to the Jehovah's Witnesses for a few years. She would come over and I would keep teaching her from the commentaries and even Greek I would look up. She would ask me if I was going to convert and I would ask her half seriously if she was going to convert..


    Love it! It reminds me of the competition to see which god/God is superior/real, in 1 Kings 18, which I find hilarious, where Elijah makes fun of the priests of Baal when Baal doesn't answer their prayers:

    "At noon, Elijah began making fun of them. "Pray louder!" he said. "Baal must be a god. Maybe he's day-dreaming or using the toilet or traveling somewhere. Or maybe he's asleep, and you have to wake him up." (1 Kings 18:27, CEV)

    Then (Yahweh) God just blows them away and shows that He alone is God:

    "Elijah dug a ditch around the altar, large enough to hold about thirteen quarts. 33He placed the wood on the altar, then they cut the bull into pieces and laid the meat on the wood.

    He told the people, "Fill four large jars with water and pour it over the meat and the wood." After they did this, 34he told them to do it two more times. They did exactly as he said 35until finally, the water ran down the altar and filled the ditch.

    36When it was time for the evening sacrifice, Elijah prayed:

    Our LORD, you are the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel. Now, prove that you are the God of this nation, and that I, your servant, have done this at your command. 37Please answer me, so these people will know that you are the LORD God, and that you will turn their hearts back to you. 38The LORD immediately sent fire, and it burned up the sacrifice, the wood, and the stones. It scorched the ground everywhere around the altar and dried up every drop of water in the ditch. 39When the crowd saw what had happened, they all bowed down and shouted, "The LORD is God! The LORD is God!"

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  41. Hey Russ,
    I would not make fun of the many failed attempts to predict the end of time. Because, one day, they will get it right. Wait and see.

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  42. That is good sarcastic satire Jim.

    Organizations with poor theology and histories of wrong prophecies are good writing material for these blogs.

    Well, I am off to help friends in their move to Bulgaria.

    Everyone (nice and respectful) please feel free to comment. No, you do not have to agree with me.

    Cheers, Jim.

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