The University Wales, Lampeter
God willing, I shall be in Wales, Lampeter in October for my PhD defence.
This is my first posting with my new computer.
I am recovering from either food poisoning (fish), or stomach flue. This article is short and sweet and edited from my PhD. If you would like to make me feel better, please comment.
Please do not get fishy with me.;)
Russ:)
Religious Labels
From my PhD questionnaire, I asked respondents that attended Christian churches to choose from a list of provided religious labels. I purposely sampled many mainline Protestants, and so not only conservative evangelicals.
The label ‘Evangelical’ has 69 (32.4%) respondents for primary label, for the secondary label it has 54 (25.4%) respondents. As a tertiary religious label it features 12 (5.6%) respondents. Overall 63.4% of respondents chose evangelical as an option. ‘Conservative’ is the primary preference of 45 (21.1%) respondents, 45 (21.1%) respondents for a secondary preference with a leading frequency for tertiary preference at 25 (11.7%) respondents. The conservative label was chosen by 53.9% of respondents and this is an indicator of my efforts to have those within liberal, progressive Christianity specifically in my project, since although a majority of respondents chose conservative as a label, it is not an overwhelming majority. ‘Charismatic’ is the primary preference of 18 (8.5%) respondents, a secondary preference of 12 (5.6%) respondents, and 10 (4.7%) respondents as a tertiary preference. So 18.8% of respondents chose this as a religious label. ‘Catholic’ is the primary religious label of 16 (7.5%) respondents, secondary preference frequency of 12 (5.6%), and tertiary preference of 10 (4.7%).
Bishop James Judd (2003) explains within ‘Short History of the Old Catholic Church’ that the term ‘catholic’ equates with the term ‘universal.’ Judd (2003: 1). The term catholic literally means ‘universal’ or ‘worldwide.’ Grenz, Guretski and Nordling (1999: 24). Since the term ‘catholic’ is not defined in my questionnaire, some respondents who state they are catholic are not necessarily Roman Catholic. Thirty-eight respondents state they are catholic for religious label, but only 9 respondents at 4.2% are part of the Roman Catholic denomination. A total of 17.8% chose the catholic option. This is not necessarily an indicator that they are members of the Roman Catholic Church, but they consider themselves catholic Christians. Judd (2003: 1).
A quick note, concerning my previous article on causation:
I would like to add, that I understand we are discussing human choices and actions and morally significant choices and actions. My heart pumping or not is in a sense a human action, but does not require my choice to work. If I was foolish I could choose to try and terminate my heart, and would perhaps die. I suppose one could argue that involuntary human actions are a form of hard determinism, but it is not morally significant or very relevant to the previous discussion on causality, but I admit that within compatibilism it is possible that some human actions could possibly in a sense fall outside of the category.
GRENZ, STANLEY J., DAVID GURETZKI and CHERITH FEE NORDLING (1999) Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms, Downers Grove, Ill., InterVarsity Press.
JUDD, BISHOP JAMES (2003) ‘Short History of the Old Catholic Church’, in American Apostolic Catholic Church, Diocese of Michigan-Georgia-Minnesota, Greenville, Michigan. American Apostolic Catholic Church, Diocese of Michigan-Georgia-Minnesota, An Old Catholic Jurisdiction.
http://www.americanchurch.org/history.htm
http://satireandtheology.blogspot.com/2008/08/i-told-you-so.html
Thanks for the figures.
ReplyDeleteI'll process that information later. Gotta run off to work now.
Hey Russ,
ReplyDeleteGlad to know that you're doing better. You have a lot of statistics here; what, exactly, will you be writing about (if you don't mind my asking)?
"Labels" are necessary, I guess; at least for a quick "general" understand of one's position. But too often, people hear something in a label that just aint so.
I consider myself "reformed", but that doesn't mean that I'm a strict Calvinist. While I do adopt much of Calvin's teachings as Scriptural, there can be much "fleshing out", so-to-speak, of "Calvinistic" doctrine that many people may not realize. They hear "reformed" and may automatically dismiss a person based solely on a preconceived set of notions that they've "heard" from others. "Reformed" doesn't necessarily mean "Calvinist"; but too many people don't even know what "Calvinism" really is to make an informed decision about that specific label!
Labels are helpful to distinguish "general" areas of disagreement (or agreement): Reformed as opposed to Arminian; Covenant Theology or Dispensational Theology; Baptist as opposed to Presbyterian; Pentecostal and Charismatic; Catholic and Roman Catholic; Evangelical and Fundamentalist; Conservative or Liberal. All of these "labels" speak to areas of disagreement AND also areas of agreement. But too often, people use only the label to determine whether or not what you believe is Scriptural. Labels are helpful, but they don't tell the whole story.
Anyway, that's my "reformed" two-cents worth! Good to have you back!
Hi, GGM.
ReplyDeleteThe PhD and MPhil theses deal with the problem of evil/theodicy.
I have wanted to avoid labels, but I admit that at times research can lead one to hold views of a particular tradition, and therefore a particular label can be reasonably accurate.
I come to Reformed positions through study, but am also willing to not come to Reformed positions if the research and my Biblical, theological, and philosophical findings warrant that I have different views.
Thanks for the good wishes, GGM.
Russ:)
That cartoon is nasty, though "runny tummies" is the gentlest way of describing it that I've ever heard.
ReplyDeleteIn my case, I'm not sure whether I would choose 'evangelical' or 'conservative' first.
I have known Catholics who had not attended church since they were children. I have also known Catholics who considered themselves Catholic, but not Christian.
In the Lutheran church, we used to have to recite the Nicene Creed, which contains the phrase, "We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church," and "catholic" was explained to us to mean "universal."
Get well soon.
Thanks very much, Jeff.
ReplyDeleteI have a 'knot' in my stomach.
I would choose Conservative and then Evangelical. I would be happy with Reformed as a first choice which would be Other from the questionnaire.
Russ:)
In the voice and slightly modified words of Preston Manning, "I love that word Refoooooooooooormed!" (obscure reference to Royal Canadian Air Farce)
ReplyDeleteThat is good to read from an ex-Mennonite!
ReplyDeleteThanks.
Is there such a label as Relationship? that is what i would consider myself.. Relationship first and then probably conservative second.. I am glad you are feeling Better Russ.. God bless you!
ReplyDeleteThanks, Tammy.
ReplyDeleteI think I understand your point. That term and concept would be placed under Other.
Please have an excellent weekend.
Russ:)
Hey Russ,
ReplyDeleteBoy, did I blunder.
I did a post on scripture not always being clear, and I left a very important part of my draft out of the post. Duh!
Anyway, for fun, see if you can pick up on what it was I left out.
The Isaiah 35 example.
Hello, Jim.
ReplyDeleteI see you added some clarification concerning your personal understanding.
I have been very busy today driving my Mom to another part of the Lower Mainland to see a surgeon, fixing up her computer and answering blog comments.
I need a nap.
Cheers,
Russ:)
great googly moogly! makes a really good point:
ReplyDelete"Labels" are necessary, I guess; at least for a quick "general" understand of one's position. But too often, people hear something in a label that just aint so.
Semantics are always a tough area because people give words their own meaning. It takes a lot more work to define yourself or your position than just throwing out a couple of words. But if I must, I usually go with Reformed, maybe Calvinist, and sometimes evangelical.
Semantics are always a tough area because people give words their own meaning.
ReplyDeleteI agree, Jake.
I may list Reformed first, but I will still at times have disagreements on certain secondary issues with others in the Reformed camp. Reformed will not mean exactly the same theology, even for those who agree on essential Reformed views.
Russ:)
Speaking of religious labels, I wonder what Barack Obama's would be. Would he put Baptist? Muslim? Or something else?
ReplyDeleteHe's such a chameleon, it would probably depend on the situation. In certain cases, if he thought it would be to his advantage (i.e., add to his votes), he might even put Conservative, or even Reformed! LOL!
OK, this has absolutely nothing to do with religious labels, but did you hear that Mongolia won their first gold medal...EVER?? Mongolians were honking their horns in the streets and celebrating with vodka. One guy even boasted, "We are descendants of the great Genghis Khan!" Man...one gold medal and already they are world conquerors.
ReplyDeleteCongratulations to you Mongolia. You need something good to happen, being situated between Russia and China must be tough.
ReplyDeleteChina apparently doesn't apply its same strict criteria for Chinese children who sing at the Olympics, to the food that they export.
ReplyDeleteIt was nine-year-old Lin Miaoke's cute face that was shown singing Ode to the Motherland in the Bird’s Nest stadium at the opening ceremony for the Olympics. But it was all faked (just as some of the fireworks were also faked), because it was actually seven-year-old Yang Peiyi singing, hidden from sight.
Because Yang Peiyi was chubby-cheeked with crooked teeth, she was considered by Communist Party officials to be too ugly. They wanted to present the best possible image of Chinese youth to the outside world. Therefore, Yang Peiyi was banned from being seen by the television cameras or by the audience, while the cute Lin Miaoke lip-synched the words.
And yet, the Chinese apparently don't care about presenting the same "flawless" image to the outside world when it comes to food that they export to the U.S. For example, toothpaste imported from China contained a chemical used in antifreeze — the same chemical that killed people in Panama two years ago, when it turned up in cough syrup, mislabeled by Chinese manufacturers as a harmless sweetener. Another example: Melamine contamination was found in pet food and animal feed that was imported from China.
Last year, FDA inspectors blocked 257 food shipments from China, which is, by far, the most of all the countries of the world. Inspectors commonly block Chinese food imports because they're filthy. They might smell decomposition. They might see gross contamination of the food.
Apparently, China is fine with poisoning and even killing the rest of the world with the food that they export. The important thing is that the world must think that Chinese children are cute.
Many in the world place too much importance on public image and social status.
ReplyDeleteWell, maybe we will get to see what Obama's 'religious label' is, after all...or at least, what he wants us to think it is:
ReplyDeleteForum on faith puts Obama-McCain back in spotlight
By CHARLES BABINGTON, Associated Press Writer Sat Aug 16, 2:35 PM ET
"LAKE FOREST, Calif. - Democrat Barack Obama and Republican John McCain agreed to appear on the same stage Saturday night, if only to share a handshake, as a televised discussion of faith ends a mid-August lull in the presidential campaign.
Obama spent the past week vacationing in Hawaii, and McCain held only a handful of public events during a time when many Americans were preoccupied with the Olympics and their own vacations. The contest now regains some intensity, starting with the two-hour forum hosted by the minister Rick Warren at his megachurch in Orange County, Calif.
Warren, nationally known for his sermons and best-selling book "The Purpose-Driven Life," will be the only questioner. Obama will appear during the first hour and McCain will take the second.
The men, whose generally cordial relationship as senators is being strained by the campaign, are scheduled to shake hands onstage during the switch.
The forum carries opportunities and risks for both candidates. It gives Obama a chance to discuss his Christian faith and counter inaccurate beliefs that he is a Muslim. But it also may highlight his positions on issues such as supporting abortion rights, which Warren and many other evangelicals oppose.
McCain's positions are more in line with evangelical Christians. But he often seems uncomfortable talking about his faith and other personal beliefs, and the Christian right shows less enthusiasm for him than for past GOP contenders."
Hey Russ,
ReplyDeleteI am replying to your comment here. I believe you are on to something concerning "happiness" in our present generation. People who believe in prosperity Gospel go completely "Finest" when they explain away why they did not win the money they thought they would after giving their rent money to the church tithe.
People also do not understand what is most important to God, concerning their happiness.
My most recent blog post is more of a contrast to what I posted in my example from from Isaiah 35 .
This realm is largely corrupted, in particular with anything regarding persons (the laws of physics were likely not effected by the fall, for example). Complete human happiness and fulfilment is not going to happen because of sin and evil, under God's permissible will.
ReplyDeleteFor theodicy a real difficulty is that true needs are not always met by God in this realm. For example, deaf persons actually scientifically need to hear. There are also wants that God does not meet, as you were alluding to I reason.
In the culminated Kingdom, where the problem of evil is solved, I reason as there is no suffering, all needs and some wants are met.
Thanks, Jim.
All them labels, well they either gonna blow off on the way up, or burn off going down. Me? I dunno. Maybe some kinda Irish? All I know is that church ain't about what or where, as much as when and why.
ReplyDeleteJust did a quick study on what the NT says about what the Church is supposed to look like (East/West/Prot/etc.) and how Hell's gates can't withstand it when it seems to be fractured thousand of different ways. The Bible never says, "This is how to build the Church" whether with pews or seats, committees, etc. It does say, "This is what the Church does," or "this is what it looks like in action." So I guess it's not am I Anglican, Presbyterian, or Zwinglian Orthodox but whether I am showing love, denying myself, and preaching Jesus!
Cheers, Robert.
ReplyDeleteThe questionnaire was done through a secular University, Wales, with the concept of sampling Christians, as in those that attend culturally Christian churches.
With all my efforts to contact liberal 'progressive' churches, I was surprised that the survey responses seemed generally evangelical, but not Reformed, of course...that was expected and a key for my thesis originality.
It is finally nice up here in the loft. The sun is down, the fans are cooling and it is warm. Summer evenings can be very nice.
This just in:
ReplyDeleteRolina chiang Febrics China
REF:CH/8983/990/C/US
This email is to inform you that the Rolina chin Febrics China needs a representative in Canada and United States of America. You will be required to be collecting/receiving payment on behalf of Rolina chin Febrics China from our clients in your region after which you will be remitted to the company as you will be directed Your Region account manager.You will be receiving the total sum of 5% of the total funds you receive from our client every two weeks,this depends on the supply we have but be rest assured that we have lots of clients in your regions at any moment. If You are interested in this Job offer,please contact Mr.Dennis Cranford.
email: department_denniscranford@live.com
Regards
Lan Wong
Rolina chin Febrics China
Wouldn't it be nice if all Christians were Catholic, not meaning Roman Catholic but universal meaning unified!
ReplyDelete-Peacefully Yours-
Re: religious labels, the following is an interesting commentary on the whole "prosperity gospel" phenomenon, but one cannot paint all pentecostals with this brush. I have attended two pentecostal churches for several years in the past, without this ever being taught. Nevertheless, when it does show up it tends to be in a charismatic church of some sort.
ReplyDeleteSugar Daddy God
by Bill Bonner
"Daddy God," is how Victoria Osteen refers to Him. Honestly. We're not making this up. When Mr. Joel Osteen took a wife, it was Victoria that he got, for better or for worse. And now the two of them preside over a mega-church in a suburb of Houston. Mr. Osteen is the author of a super bestselling book, Your Best Life Now . God wants us to be prosperous, he argues, in front of thousands of worshippers. How does he know what God wants? He speaks "face to face" with God, says his wife, making him the first person ever to do so. (What did He look like? Has anyone asked?)
Over in Atlanta, the Rev. Creflo Dollar Jr., seems to be doing even better. He and his wife, Taffi, entertain at another huge church, drive around in a Rolls Royce, and have a private $5 million jet to move them from one speaking engagement to another.
Mr. Dollar, like Mr. Osteen, believes in the power of God to move mountains, but they trust in the Almighty Dollar to smooth out the little foothills in their way. Last year, for example, Mr. Dollar sent 100 of the local Fulton County police officers checks for $1,000 each – a month after two traffic tickets the Reverend Dollar had received had been downgraded to warnings.
And back in the Lone Star State, Kenneth Copeland and his main squeeze, Gloria, have done even better – with 4 jets at their disposal. Mr. Copeland, the subject of a MoneyWeek article last month, is also said to have a parsonage the "size of a hotel," probably more like a huge Motel 6 than a Crillon.
This might be just another part of the baroque spectacle that makes America such an amusing place. But there is more to the story, which is – as you might guess – the subject of today's column.
Gibbon blamed the fall of Rome at least in part, on Christianity; it encouraged a retreat from the battle for money and power, he said. Now, Kevin Phillips, in a new book, Bad Money, charges the pentecostal wing of American Christianity with undermining the U.S. empire in the opposite way. He argues that the evangelicals pushed the Republicans down-market. There, the yahoo voters brought them temporal power – 30% of Republican voters identify themselves with an evangelical sect. But they also hollowed out Republicans' traditional respect for sensible finances.
Among the many frauds of the Reagan-Bush II period, few were gaudier than the "prosperity gospel." Preached in America's gamy religious outposts, the concept does for religion what the neo-conservatives did to conservatism, what modern portfolio theory did for Wall Street, and what Keynesianism did to the economics profession – it a made a monkey of it.
In politics, the neos turned conservatism inside out. The old conservatives were wet blankets, do-nothings and naysayers. When news spread of Calvin Coolidge's death, for example, people asked, "How could they tell?" But the new conservatives are the life of the party. It is said that George W. Bush "doesn't even know the meaning of the word can't." (Of course, there may be other words he doesn't know the meaning of.) And the neocons' idea of political economy was similarly liberated from any residual notions of conservatism and common sense. "Deficits don't matter," said Dick Cheney, speaking for every wishful thinker since Caligula.
On Wall Street and the City, the old conservative doctrines were put away with top hats and spats. In place of prudence came derring-do. In the place of reasonable salaries came breathtaking bonuses. Mortgage lenders no longer studied a borrower's finances to make sure he was a good credit risk; they didn't even take his pulse. And they no longer seemed to care whether their takeovers, triple-A paper, and structured products made any real financial sense; it was enough that they paid a fee.
In economics, too, somehow, the world's leading economists bent the figures into a preposterous new shape so appealing that even a teenager could love it. An economy can get richer by living it up, they said; and the purpose of central banking was to encourage consumption rather than capital formation.
Was it any wonder that the pulpits sank into the honey too? Along came Jim and Tammy Faye Baker with a sexy new religion – spreading the get-rich gospel over the TV waves. Then, poor Jim got sent to prison for fraud, and when he came out he renounced the new doctrine. But other couples – for some reason these preachers seem to work in husband and wife teams, like Juan and Eva Peron – picked up the tablets. Soon, they had convinced millions to give up the hard-benches of the old Calvinists and sink their plump derrieres into some of the cushiest seats in Christendom.
Churchgoers at Mr. Dollar's World Changers church services wave envelopes full of cash, reports the Atlanta paper. On the big screen, they offer testimonial proof of the 'financial blessings' that came their way after they began sending the preacher 10% of their pre-tax earnings: "The congregants...yell in joy as ushers pass the white buckets down the row to collect the envelopes. After more singing, Dollar preaches... He relentlessly attacks the idea that Christians should limit material possessions. Christians have for too long let the 'devil's crowd' get all the money, power and real estate, he says. Then he tells congregants to say, 'I want my stuff.'"
"I want my stuff," they repeat, laughing.
Politics, money, religion – the flim flam was the same everywhere. It was the promise of something for nothing, gain without pain, Easter without Good Friday. But with America's housing prices falling and unemployment rising, the Pentecostals will find it harder to get their stuff than ever. Maybe God didn't want them to be wealthy after all. On the evidence, maybe He just likes a good laugh, like the rest of us.
Thanks to Anon, and Chucky.
ReplyDeleteChucky, the charismatic church I attended in England did assume God would speak to the congregation at a certain point almost every Sunday. Someone would usually have a prophetic word in English.
I remain skeptical. It seems to be forced based on psychological expectations. God is sovereign and will not necessarily provide manifestations when people want them.
I believe I read that the original Pentecostals originally rejected the Charismatic Movement as false doctrine.
ReplyDeleteAnd, of course, the Charismatic Movement has moved beyond the Pentecostal church into pretty much every denomination, and even into the Catholic Church now. I say 'now,' but this has been going on for years. Catholics have been speaking in tongues for many years, and many of the Charismatics I know accept Catholics as long as they speak in tongues.
This is from:
http://www.forgottenword.org/nb-3-07.html
"I also watched Rod Parsleys Breakthrough program where he mentions this “Resurrection seed” by claiming God “told him” there are 120 people that can give a Resurrection seed offering of $8,500, and when they do God will give them “a creative lifetime income producing idea!” For the same $8,500 God will also provide a “stress free home, a year of divine health and uncommon financial favor!” All this for the low, low price of $8,500!"
Years ago, I watched a video of Rod Parsley where he gave an account of a supposed visit he had to Heaven. One of my brothers has practically idolized Rod Parsley for years. I was laughing at some of the ridiculous assertions that Rod Parsley was making about his supposed trip to Heaven (it sounded like just another casual trip to a friend's house, and some of the things he claimed he saw were nothing like what Scripture describes). My brother got angry, so I probably should have been a bit more discreet and tactful.
Benny Hinn used to be super-popular, before Joel Osteen arrived on the scene. Benny Hinn is still very popular, but he's no longer the main one in the spotlight. But I think that Benny Hinn may be one of the greatest hypnotists in the world.
However, the Health & Wealth Gospel/Prosperity Gospel is no longer the most dangerous doctrine. It has paved the way for something worse. Now some have gold dust falling from Heaven, oil dripping down the walls and onto Bibles, and gemstones falling from Heaven. You can see videos of the oil, gold dust (which looks like glitter to me) and gem stones (which look machine-cut). IMO, this is paving the way for the great deception of Christians talked about in Revelation in the Last Days.
Thanks for the informative input, Jeff.
ReplyDeleteRuss:)