Short non-exhaustive thoughts on Church government

Butchart Gardens, Victoria BC (trekearth.com)

Methodology

I am not a chauvinist. I am not a feminist. Females are equal to males, both made in the image of God, Genesis 1: 27. I am a Biblical theologian. I write this post because like the previous article it came up in a recent discussion. That is all. That is where many of my ideas come from.

As a philosophical theologian and philosopher of religion I like to state that Church Ministry as a profession is not my 'bag'. But all Christians should be ministers at least as in small 'm'. I have never had any interest in becoming a Reverend. Frankly, I would be a pretty useless theologian and Christian philosopher if I could not minister to someone in Christian love. I do this. While I was in Dublin in 1995 a lady tried to kill herself, sort of, by leaving her baby and carriage across the street outside of a pub and she threatened to jump into the River Liffey and I did council her until the police came. I think she was trying to get her husband's attention. I had just been in the city for thirty minutes. Welcome to Dublin. A very nice city by the way.

Government

The other day I was briefly discussing women as elders in the Church with a Reverend. We basically have a very similar view. We agreed that the overseer (episkopos) Browning (1997: 112), in the New Testament was a man and should be today, even with cultural considerations such as more education for women. I did state I thought the issue did get slippery in regard to educated Christian women with Doctorates in congregations with men with much less spiritual maturity. Especially small congregations. I stand by this.

My scanner is small and some of the texts are very large and so the scans will not be perfectly straight, my apologies once again.

Strong page 40

There are other considerations such as I Timothy 3 pointing out that an overseer should be the husband of one wife. So a man. Also in Ephesians 5 there is the concept of the husband as head of the wife and as Christ is the head of the Church, a reasonable resulting view being a woman therefore should not be the spiritual head of a local church, if she is not the spiritual head of the home. I do not conclude from this that a woman should not be a head of a corporation, country, etc..

Browning states that when the overseers met they were considered the elders (presbuteroi) Browning (1997: 112). Wallace notes it in English as (presbytereroi). Wallace (1996: 347). Thiessen expresses his opinion that the terms pastor, elder and bishop all were one and the same office in the New Testament quoting Acts 20. Thiessen (1956: 418). He quotes Saint Jerome that stated the elder was identical to the bishop in the text the 'Early Years of Christianity' from E. De Pressense. Thiessen (1956: 418). Wallace states that the term episkopos/overseer is used interchangeably with versions for the word for elder in Acts 20 and in Titus. Wallace (1996: 347). Wallace reasons overseers are always elders but he is not sure that elders are always overseers. Some elders may have not been overseers. Wallace (1996: 347).

Image is from Strong page 80.

If in the New Testament when the overseers met they were the elders then there could be an argument made that the only legitimate elders today in a church are overseers/pastors/Reverends.

However, with my findings it is not crystal clear that only overseers were elders Biblically.

Browning states women could be regarded as deacons. Browning (1997: 93). Deacons were agents of the overseers. Browning (1997: 93).

Conclusions

If what Browning appears to be stating and what Thiessen is stating is the Biblical case, then today's elected elders that are not overseers are actually more like deacons. So, there can be an argument and discussion on whether or not women can be elders/deacons by this modern church definition only. But, I do not think they can be elders/overseers Biblically. This is a slippery topic.

If the other view suggested by Wallace is the Biblical case, then women can become Biblical deacons only.

Yes, this in my view is somewhat semantics.

BROWNING, W.R.F. (1997) Oxford Dictionary of the Bible, Oxford, Oxford University Press.

STRONG, J. (1890)(1986) Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. Grand Rapids, Welch.

THIESSEN, HENRY C. (1956) Introductory Lectures in Systematic Theology, Perrysburgh, Ohio, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

WALLACE, R.S. (1996) ‘Elder' in Walter A. Elwell (ed.), Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Books.


Butchart Gardens, Victoria, BC (trekearth.com)


Victoria, BC (trekearth.com)

Now I admit while I was attending Bible School I used to nap in the
library while I waiting for driving partner Bobby Buff to do his assignments. As he did his work at school and I did mine at home, but this is one place I would never nap.


Well, we have had some really smart blondes (comment) on this blog...I imagine this one is smart too. 

Thanks PMH for the photos.

The Battle of Ricky's: Dr. Kingpin and The Demon Chaser

Langley Castle, Hexham, England (All article photos from trekearth.com)

To quote the previous post...'This is the last post for this blog for 2010.' So, in order to keep plans I will date this article of December 19, 2010, January 1, 2011. I did not want to do another post so close to Christmas as some people may become busy and forget about blogs, but there is the saying 'The Lord leads' and I am led I reason to write this post and I will date it 2011 and hopefully receive several comments after the New Year, and hopefully before. But it may well be a post that receives more attention in 2011.

So, once again Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

A. Non-Exhaustive Background

J.R. Williams states that the charismatic movement began in the 1950s and was often termed 'neo-Pentecostal'. Williams (1996: 205). In recent times participants known as charismatics are described often as being involved in 'charismatic renewal'. Williams (1996: 205). Williams explains the immediate background of this movement is 'classical Pentecostalism' which dates from the early twentieth century. Williams (1996: 205). Classical Pentecostalism emphasized strongly baptism in the Holy Spirit as an endowment of power subsequent to/after conversion and the continuation of the spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12) in post New Testament times is considered valid. Williams (1996: 205). Baptism with the Holy Spirit is understood as an experience where a Christian believer is filled with the presence of the Holy Spirit. Williams (1996: 205). It is thought to occur at conversion or it can occur after. Williams (1996: 205). This would be a very strong spiritual guidance of a believer by the Spirit of God.

Robert Faricy designates a charismatic as one in the Christian community guided by the Holy Spirit and believing in a working within the gifts of the Spirit through love. Faricy (1999: 91). There are the spiritual gifts and manifestations from the New Testament era still in existence today, is the reasoning.

B. Dr. Kingpin and The Demon Chaser

A family friend wanted me to meet an older gentleman that my friend states considers himself a prophet and works in demonology. The gentlemen was seemingly a Christian man working within the charismatic movement. We met for brunch at a Ricky's restaurant in Langely, BC. This was my second bust-up that week as I also got into short one with a Professor in California via email. Take a shot at the new PhD week? By God's grace I was ready.

Is Ricky related to Denny? Just wondering.

Before I continue, I do not consider myself a charismatic.

I do reason spiritual gifting and guidance does exist today. But, I do not think that there are Apostles and Prophets today as their place and ministry was in the Biblical eras. The miraculous that took place in the New Testament, and also in the Hebrew Bible, was primarily a foreshadowing of the healing and blessings of the future culminated Kingdom of God.

Therefore, Christians should not typically expect miraculous types of events to occur in the post-New Testament era.

Further, this gentleman that I will call The Demon Chaser seemed like a very sincere Christian man and we parted on good loving terms, agreeing to pray for each other. We did agree on certain issues concerning the Church being in trouble in regard to theology and obedience. My disagreements with him are not primarily because I view him as charismatic, but because his views are extreme and what I would deem as hyper-charismatic.

My three academic advisors for my Wales MPhil and PhD theses work were are charismatic and quite scholarly. I am not criticizing charismatic theology primarily here, but a hyper-charismatic theology.

B1. Free will and Determinism

The primary debate in our friendly but at times heated interaction took place concerning the topic of free will/determinism in regard to human salvation. I took the compatibilistic Reformed limited free will stand that I took in my MPhil, strengthened and understood better in my PhD and have taught on both of my blogs, especially this one. The gentleman took a libertarian free will stand. If this subject interests please look in search and you will find several articles related.

A problem with his approach however was his admittance that he only sees things in black and white. There is no grey/gray he stated. This is not surprising for someone that would take an extreme viewpoint that I would deem as hyper-charismatic. A related problem is that with a complex subject like free will/determinism, that I just spent over ten years of my life studying in the context of academic theology and philosophy, is that it requires an understanding of intellectual subtleties. He indicated he did not care about the term 'libertarian free will' and implied he just basically wanted to deal in terms of human choice or no choice.

Therefore, the end result is he is left with two extreme choices, in my view, libertarian free will or hard determinism, and he makes the choice of the first although he refused to call it by that name.

My goal in this article is not to argue my views on free will and determinism. That has been done often on this blog, but here are some definitions for context, especially for my newer readers. I do not want to go on and on with the same debates, and do not want to bore the reader with similar type presentation far too often, but I present these definitions for context.

Libertarian free will is usually viewed as a form of indeterminism. The concept in libertarian free will is that a person is able to perform another action in the place of one that has been committed. This action cannot be predetermined by any circumstance or desire. It would also be considered as a form of incompatibilism.

Here is an explanation of hard determinism and my compatibilist position of soft determinism.

Philosopher Louis P. Pojman explains that within determinism or hard determinism, an outside force causes an act and no created being is responsible for his or her moral actions, while for compatibilism or soft determinism, although an outside force causes actions, created beings are responsible where they act voluntarily. Within hard determinism an outside force would be the only cause of human actions, while with soft determinism an outside force would be the primary cause of human actions and persons the secondary cause. Pojman (1996: 596). God would be the primary cause within Christian theism of a Reformed tradition.

B2. Deliverance Ministry

The gentleman appeared to verify my friend's statement that he considered himself a prophet.

He claimed to have:

Met Jesus Christ.

Predicted as in prophesied 911.

He claimed:

That Christians could live sinless enough lives to avoid death, as did Enoch (Hebrews 11: 5).

That Christians should be seeking lives of perfect health. He reasoned that demonic beings were behind certain health problems.

So:

Could he have met Christ? Possible, but it would be very difficult to prove. Frankly, his theological errors make this questionable from my perspective.

Could he have predicted as in prophesied 911? Possible, but one would need to see solid evidence for this that was more than a prediction/deduction, but something clearly from the Holy Spirit as prophecy.

I agree with what Hebrews states about Enoch, but this gentlemen attempted to prove his point by naming a man within the modern age that disappeared walking and was never found. The gentlemen stated some persons thought the man was killed and eaten by an animal, but the body was never found. I would conclude that without inside knowledge, a person would have no idea what happened to this man and would have no reason without much stronger evidence to reason that he was taken to heaven as was Enoch.

This gentleman implied that my health issues, which I am not going to get into here, but are typical type of human ailments we all generally have, could be due to demonic beings and that I perhaps needed a deliverance. Well, I do not want to be mean here, but this man was older and seemed a little hunched over in the back. In other words, he did not look perfectly healthy. Should I assume this is the work of demons?

In the fall (Genesis 3 forward), we human beings will all (virtually accepting Enoch, for example) die and suffer previously in body and spirit.

God wills all things.

One would need a divine supernatural healing from God, 'deliverance' or not, to have perfect health.

Therefore, I see no reason to necessarily tie demonic beings into human health issues.

Langley, BC


Langley, BC

Fort Langley, BC

FARICY ROBERT (1999) 'Charismatic', in Alan Richardson and John Bowden (eds.), A New Dictionary of Christian Theology, Kent, SCM Press Limited.

POJMAN, LOUIS P. (1996) Philosophy: The Quest for Truth, New York, Wadsworth Publishing Company.

WILLIAMS, J.R. (1996) ‘Charismatic Movement' in Walter A. Elwell (ed.), Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Books.