Giovanni Antonio Canale, called Canaletto (1697-1768)
Capriccio: River Landscape with a Column, a Ruined Roman Arch, and Reminiscences of England. c. 1754. Oil on canvas. The National Gallery of Art, Washington, DC, USA.
http://satireandtheology.blogspot.com/2008/06/radical-canadian-
liberal-christianity.html
This article features another portion from my MPhil where I reviewed C.S. Lewis' work on the problem of evil.
This is short and hopefully sweet and comments are always appreciated. I will provide new additional comments at the end.
http://thekingpin68.blogspot.com/2006/01/mphil-wales-2003.html
Animal Pain
Lewis was not sure why animals suffer, and stated that no human being knew. He doubted that animals had a soul of consciousness as human beings do. Without consciousness an animal experiences sensations, but does not deal with it in a deep, soulful way as a human being would.
He stated:
But at least a great deal of what appears to be animal suffering need not be suffering in any real sense. It may be we who have invented the ‘sufferers’ by the ‘pathetic fallacy’ of reading into the beast a self for which there is no real evidence. Lewis (1940)(1996: 137).
Animals after all do not build civilizations, nor do they have families as we understand them. Animals communicate and live based on instinct and sensation rather than conscious rational thought, so their pain would be different. I am not minimizing their pain, and I think cruelty to animals is appalling, but I think Lewis correct in indicating that animal pain in not well understood by humanity. What can be deduced is that it is not comparable to human pain which is experienced by rational beings.
Additional
The term rational is a tricky one. In the MPhil I was meaning that the concept of being rational would consist of reasoning. Blackburn provides a good explanation that reasoning would consist of drawing a conclusion from a set of premises. Blackburn (1996: 320).
Osterhaven explains that Biblically animals are considered to have a soul. Osterhaven. (1996: 1036). I provide here again in this article, as with the last article, the most commonly used Greek word for soul ‘psuche’ psoo-khay according to Strong's Concordance. Strong (1986: 106). Osterhaven also notes that beasts as a principle of life are stated to have a spirit as well in Genesis 6:17 and 7:15. Osterhaven (1996: 1041). Strong is in agreement on the verses and the most common Old Testament word for breath or spirit ‘ruwach’ roo’-akh is used, and I provide this once again. Strong (1986: 142).
Theologically in Scripture animals are not described as communicating with God in a spiritual way, and therefore theologically the soul/spirit nature of animals is considered unable to spiritually communicate with God. The theological assumption can be made that the animal soul/spirit is limited to the temporal earthly realm and when an animal body dies, so does the soul. I lean toward this understanding, and do not reason that there are animals in soul/spirit form in God's presence after death. However, in the new heaven and new earth, God if he so pleases could resurrect animals seemingly easily. This could be done if God desires that some of his animals inhabit the Kingdom of God and it could also occur since many resurrected persons will seemingly desire to love their deceased pets.
If there were animals in the culminated Kingdom would they be immortal? Perhaps, but if they were not, certainly God, or even perhaps resurrected persons could in faith with God's power maintain the life of animals as they could be virtually immortal even if they were not technically immortal.
So, do animals go to heaven? Well, the answer could be yes and no. I doubt animals are in God's presence in a strictly spiritual realm, but some animals could be resurrected as the Kingdom of God is culminated.
BLACKBURN, S. (1996) Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy, Oxford, Oxford University Press.
LEWIS, C.S. (1940)(1996) The Problem of Pain, San Francisco, Harper-Collins.
OSTERHAVEN, M.E. (1996) ‘Soul’, in Walter A. Elwell (ed.), Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Books.
OSTERHAVEN, M.E. (1996) ‘Spirit’, in Walter A. Elwell (ed.), Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Books.
STRONG, J. (1986) Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Pickering, Ontario, Welch Publishing Company.
My Mom sent me an email with photos from the Tiger Temple or Wat Pha Luang Ta Bua which is a Theravada Buddhist temple in Thailand. I do not like the idea of the tigers beings chained up and favour, if possible, the idea of wild animals living in the wild. I have no problem with people having domestic pets.
I dare you to try and floss my teeth.
An overgrown house cat?
Nice painting!
ReplyDeleteTell Lewis that animals suffer because of man's sin. The whole earth is cursed.
Oh, wait, never mind...he's probably asked God by now.
Those people with the tigers are foolish. I was told by an animal trainer that tigers are more sneaky and unpredictable than any other animal he's worked with...bears, lions, etc.
ReplyDeleteI was once a couple feet from a tiger, with only a very tall, double-fence separating us. I walked back and forth along the fence, and got the tiger to walk alongside me. Kids were commenting on how amazing it was that I got the tiger to follow me. Suddenly, the tiger stood up and put it's front paws against the fence, and stretched its entire body up. It freaked me out, because, stretched out, he towered several feet taller than I was (and I'm 6'). He may have merely been playing, but I don't want to think what might have happened if that fence wasn't there.
Oh, and animals don't have a soul.
ReplyDeleteYou can be sure of that.
How do I know that?
Well, if there were pit bulls in Heaven, it would no longer be Heaven!
It would be Hell!
Um, for the sake of clarity, I meant eternal soul.
ReplyDeleteI just wanna emphasize my point.
ReplyDeleteI don't care whether you're talking about Heaven in general, or about the New Heaven and New Earth.
If'n therez gonna be them thar snakes, spiders, scorpions, rats, and even them wasps and mosquitoes, then, buddy, that ain't much of a Heaven!
Cause if they don't die when you stomp 'em (since they already died), you got yo'self a PROBLEM! If RAID or the bottom of your shoe don't stop 'em, you're in TROUBLE!
Remember the movie "Pet Cemetary?"
You want Heaven to be like that?
I don't THINK so!
Fido can rest in peace, thank-you-very-much!
I think that Tiger Temple should be called "Wat Wuh Dey Thahk Ing"
ReplyDeleteThe people living behind me have a rat terrier that barks about 24 hours a day. If that thing makes it into Heaven, as soon as the angels turn their backs, I'm tossin' that sucker into the Lake of Fire!
ReplyDeleteNice painting!
ReplyDeleteI know, Canaletto was a spectacular painter. I think he took a little longer than 27 minutes to complete a painting.
Those people with the tigers are foolish. I was told by an animal trainer that tigers are more sneaky and unpredictable than any other animal he's worked with...bears, lions, etc.
I think messing with a cat anywhere near my size or larger would be risky.
Remember the movie "Pet Cemetary?"
You want Heaven to be like that?
I don't THINK so!
Fido can rest in peace, thank-you-very-much!
I have not seen the movie, but you have just broken a lot of hearts!
Cheers, Jeff.:)
The people living behind me have a rat terrier that barks about 24 hours a day. If that thing makes it into Heaven, as soon as the angels turn their backs, I'm tossin' that sucker into the Lake of Fire!
ReplyDeleteI would seriously doubt all animals will be resurrected.
Very funny, Jeff.
I would seriously doubt all animals will be resurrected.
ReplyDeleteThat's right. Only those who don't bark, don't bite, don't shed and are housebroken will make it into Heaven. And tearing up the furniture or marking the carpet are mortal sins, and are unforgivable.
I hope you get stuck with a tame resurrected Tiger.
ReplyDeleteIn my research on this local "Revival" during the past few days or more, I've been watching so many videos of people rolling on the floor in "holy laughter" and giggling that I think its starting to affect me.
ReplyDeleteI hope you get stuck with a tame resurrected Tiger.
ReplyDeleteWell, even though I'm not a cat person, large cats are cool and beautiful...as long as they don't attack you.
It would be cool to take your tiger or your black panther for a walk on those streets of gold...as long as they were tame, as you said.
Actually, as long as the animals were tame, I would probably choose a saber-toothed tiger for a pet in Heaven. Might as well look cool!
Besides the charismatic happenings I came across in Manchester from 1999-2001, I also came across the 'laughing in the spirit' manifestation and the supposed 'revival' at a London church while touring. I am skeptical that these events are from God in obedience, and think we need Holy Spirit led reformation/revival and not largely psychologically based emotions and manifestations.
ReplyDeleteI toured the United Kingdom, Ireland, and some of Western Europe with Chucky on two trips 1995 and 1997 as I was considering taking a PhD over there. As things worked out I attended up at Manchester and then transferred to Wales, Cardiff with a new advisor. When he moved to Wales, Bangor I went with him to complete the MPhil part of the PhD program. He did not have enough time to assist me with the PhD and so I worked with a friend of his at Wales, Lampeter, and then he took a position somewhere else. I am finishing up with a different advisor. All of these advisors at Wales have been charismatic.
"I also came across the 'laughing in the spirit' manifestation and the supposed 'revival' at a London church while touring."
ReplyDeleteNever heard of this. But I laugh sometimes just as I'm falling to sleep as the result of sleep disorders, so maybe they're actually dozing off!! ;-)
I don't think animals will go to heaven either. I think Scripture is quite plain on that. Yet, its also surprising the believers who think they do. I think its because they like to think they will see "fido" in heaven, and so they comfort themselves by that.
I can't imagine cows in heaven, with all that methane! ;-)
Thanks, Deejay.
ReplyDeleteSince animals very likely do not have a spirit that is capable of communication with God, it seems certain they will not be present in heaven (1), which is paradise where the human spirit in Christ resides after death. Luke 16 mentions this place called paradise, although the story may be parable. This could very well be a literal place and it is mentioned in other places in Scripture such as Luke 23: 43, and 2 Corinthians 12: 4. This seemingly is a purely spiritual realm that may simulate physical attributes for the sake of human beings that await the resurrection.
Heaven (2) is the new heaven and new earth mentioned in Revelation 21-22, and 2 Peter 3: 8-13. This is a restored universe and earth with physical attributes. Many scholars reason it does not appear to be an ex nihilo, out of nothing, second creation from scratch, but a restoration. David F. Payne is his commentary on 2 Peter writes that the earth and everything is laid bare by burning. Payne (1986: 1569). The resurrected new bodies have both physical and spiritual attributes as in 1 Corinthians 15: 44. As the restored earth will be physical it is logical and reasonable to assume there will be trees and plant life that are natural to the physical environment. With our physical spiritual bodies we could participate in the physical restored Kingdom including with the resurrected Christ, and other persons while being filled with the Holy Spirit. Certainly it is a reasonable possibility that human beings would experience other aspects of nature such as animals. Our spiritual nature would allow us, unlike the animals, to fellowship with the triune God in the strictly spiritual realm as deceased persons do now in paradise.
These are my Biblical and somewhat speculative thoughts which I think make sense. We must remember that if God did not intend for there to be everlasting physical life there would be no need for the resurrection as deceased Christians and Old Testament followers could simply exist and fellowship with God in the non-physical paradise forever. The fact of the resurrection means not only do we need to have a physical spiritual human body to be fully human, but we also need a physical universe and world. A few animals as part of this Kingdom would certainly not be far-fetched.
Thanks,
Russ:)
PAYNE. DAVID F.(1986) ‘2 Peter’, in F.F. Bruce, (ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Marshall Pickering/Zondervan.
Hey Russell,
ReplyDeleteAs I was contemplating God's creation of man and beast after reading some C.S. Lewis, I felt that animals must have a soul. I tried to reason with that and found, "ru-auch". This is the Hebrew word for spirit.
Here is what I know about the 'soul' first.
Psuche is the Koine Greek word for soul. It is the seat of volition. The center of thought, senses and feeling. Animals all have this. Right?
So, why do they not go to Heaven?
O.K. Here is where I break into the security files of Heaven. Actually, this wisdom comes from me. So, if it sounds idiotic, I will take responsibility. Don't blame Heaven.
Since animals and humans have soul and spirit, I would have to say that what makes us different is the empowering of the Holy Spirit.
You used the word 'Ruach' and gave the Strong's definition. Ruach is something like ambient air. It lays on us and is around us. Can even be a wind storm, but does not affect in any other way but for the physical.
What is the word for "Spirit" in Koine Greek? Pneuma. From which we borrow to create words like "pneumatics". Pneuma is driven air. It has a force behind it. The Greek use of the word in reference to Holy Spirit says we are empowered by the Holy Spirit.
Animals are not empowered by the Holy Spirit. So, Jeff can rest knowing this. Which, ofcourse would mean there will be no empowered 'squashes' spiders in Heaven.
http://deityquest.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2008-05-01T19%3A14%3A00-07%3A00&max-results=7
I beleive if you copy the above address into your address bar, it will take you to the article I wrote when I was contemplating our existance.
If not, use http:deityquest.blogspot.com/ and use the archive. It is the only post in April of this year.
Also, if you could instruct me in how I could have turned all of that code above into a link, I would very much appreciate it: like that is great incentive. Maybe I could put a word in with the Chinese. My Daughter-in-law is Taiwanese. She might have some connections to get your "Theological Hitman" carrear started.
Jim
Thanks, Jim.
ReplyDeleteIn my previous article on this blog I mentioned:
The most used word for spirit in the New Testament is ‘pneuma’ pnyoo’mah. Strong (1986: 78).
It seems from my limited Biblical and theological research on the subject animals do not have 'pneuma' and therefore do not have the ability to spiritually communicate with God and cannot be indwelled with the Holy Spirit. In my mind this would prohibit animals from God's direct presence in the supernatural realm, but would not prohibit them from existing in an everlasting restored earth where Christ rules.
With the links, I cannot complete one here for you as an example because it will appear as a link then in the comment.:) Please check this link:
Downloading with FTP (example)
Jim, if you would like to exchange links with this blog and perhaps satire and theology, my other theology blog, please let me know.
Thanks for your interaction this evening. Blogging is hard work at first. It is in meeting people such as yourself that make it worth while. Otherwise, we post blogs and none of them get read.
ReplyDeleteI am a novice at many things. Bible study is my passion. However, I do my best, but find my opinions sometimes inferior to other bloggers. So, yes. If you would like to exchange links that is cool with me. I will post a link to your blogs in all of my blogs. I have three. Two of them are retired. I posted the manuscript. Another is for the study guide to the manuscript. And just recently, I began "Journaling For Growth". I don't think that is the address for it, though.
You know that you can find it at my complete profile page.
I'm going to go now and start working on getting your blogs linked to all three of mine.
Jim
Thanks, Jim, we can link.
ReplyDeleteRuss:)
Hi Russ I liked this one. There is a couple I know very well and this is one of the only things they argue about. "Animals in Heaven." Apparently the debate gets very emotional and heated but they cannot agree. I might point them to your blog.
ReplyDeleteOnly two more weeks to go, then back to my post.
Russell.
Thanks for the support and comments, Russell.:)
ReplyDelete