Tuesday, May 30, 2006

Arminianism and Free Will

Arminianism and Free Will

Edited with significant material added on August 4, 2022, for a planned entry on academia.edu. 

Preface

Vancouver, BC, trekearth

Within my MPhil and PhD theoretical work on theodicy, sovereignty, free will, and determinism, I have dealt with free will perspectives from Lewis, Augustine and Plantinga, but not Arminianism. A friend of mine, Varun, asked me about Arminianism. The following is a brief discussion of Arminianism and free will, prior to completing my PhD work. Arminianism was not a main focus of my MPhil/PhD work and this article is brief and non-exhaustive. Pelagianism was also, not a major MPhil/PhD work focus.

Total Depravity

A definition of total depravity that I used in my MPhil...The concept of total depravity does not mean (1) that depraved people cannot or do not perform actions that are good in either man's or God's sight. But no such action can gain favor with God for salvation. Neither does it mean (2) that fallen man has no conscience which judges between good and evil for him. But that conscience has been effected by the fall so that it cannot be a safe and reliable guide. Neither does it mean (3) that people indulge in every form of sin or in any sin to the greatest extent possible. Positively total depravity means that the corruption has extended to all aspects of man's nature, to his being: and total depravity means that because of that corruption there is nothing man can do to merit saving favour with God. Ryrie (1996: 312).

Pelagianism

It must be noted that Arminianism is not Pelagianism. Pelagianism believes that human beings can achieve salvation from their own powers. It is believed that human beings can choose in free will, good or evil. Original sin was a bad example, and not inherited. Yarnold (1999: 435).

Cited from


'Transcription. This article was transcribed for New Advent by Anthony A. Killeen. Aeterna non caduca. Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. February 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.'

'Apart from the chief episodes of the Pelagian controversy, little or nothing is known about the personal career of Pelagius. It is only after he bade a lasting farewell to Rome in A.D. 411 that the sources become more abundant; but from 418 on history is again silent about his person. As St. Augustine (De peccat. orig., xxiv) testifies that he lived in Rome "for a very long time", we may presume that he resided there at least since the reign of Pope Anastasius (398-401). But about his long life prior to the year 400 and above all about his youth, we are left wholly in the dark. Even the country of his birth is disputed. While the most trustworthy witnesses, such as Augustine, Orosius, Prosper, and Marius Mercator, are quite explicit in assigning Britain as his native country, as is apparent from his cognomen of Brito or Britannicus, Jerome (Praef. in Jerem., lib. I and III) ridicules him as a "Scot" (loc. cit., "habet enim progeniem Scoticae gentis de Britannorum vicinia"), who being "stuffed with Scottish porridge" (Scotorum pultibus proegravatus) suffers from a weak memory. 

Rightly arguing that the "Scots" of those days were really the Irish, H. Zimmer ("Pelagius in Ireland", p. 20, Berlin, 1901) has advanced weighty reasons for the hypothesis that the true home of Pelagius must be sought in Ireland, and that he journeyed through the southwest of Britain to Rome. Tall in stature and portly in appearance (Jerome, loc. cit., "grandis et corpulentus"), Pelagius was highly educated, spoke and wrote Latin as well as Greek with great fluency and was well versed in theology. Though a monk and consequently devoted to practical asceticism, he never was a cleric; for both Orosius and Pope Zosimus simply call him a "layman". In Rome itself he enjoyed the reputation of austerity, while St. Augustine called him even a "saintly man", vir sanctus: with St. Paulinus of Nola (405) and other prominent bishops, he kept up an edifying correspondence, which he used later for his personal defence.'

Pelagius and Luther

Cited

'A closer examination of this work, so suddenly become famous, brought to light the fact that it contained the fundamental ideas which the Church afterwards condemned as "Pelagian heresy". In it Pelagius denied the primitive state in paradise and original sin (cf. P.L., XXX, 678, "Insaniunt, qui de Adam per traducem asserunt ad nos venire peccatum"), insisted on the naturalness of concupiscence and the death of the body, and ascribed the actual existence and universality of sin to the bad example which Adam set by his first sin. As all his ideas were chiefly rooted in the old, pagan philosophy, especially in the popular system of the Stoics, rather than in Christianity, he regarded the moral strength of man's will (liberum arbitrium), when steeled by asceticism, as sufficient in itself to desire and to attain the loftiest ideal of virtue. The value of Christ's redemption was, in his opinion, limited mainly to instruction (doctrina) and example (exemplum), which the Saviour threw into the balance as a counterweight against Adam's wicked example, so that nature retains the ability to conquer sin and to gain eternal life even without the aid of grace. 

By justification we are indeed cleansed of our personal sins through faith alone (loc. cit., 663, "per solam fidem justificat Deus impium convertendum"), but this pardon (gratia remissionis) implies no interior renovation of sanctification of the soul. How far the sola-fides doctrine "had no stouter champion before Luther than Pelagius" and whether, in particular, the Protestant conception of fiducial faith dawned upon him many centuries before Luther, as Loofs ("Realencyklopädies fur protest. Theologie", XV, 753, Leipzig, 1904) assumes, probably needs more careful investigation. For the rest, Pelagius would have announced nothing new by this doctrine, since the Antinomists of the early Apostolic Church were already familiar with "justification by faith alone" (cf. JUSTIFICATION); on the other hand, Luther's boast of having been the first to proclaim the doctrine of abiding faith, might well arouse opposition. However, Pelagius insists expressly (loc. cit. 812), "Ceterum sine operibus fidei, non legis, mortua est fides". But the commentary on St. Paul is silent on one chief point of doctrine, i.e. the significance of infant baptism, which supposed that the faithful were even then clearly conscious of the existence of original sin in children.' (End citation)
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In 1525, Luther wrote The Bondage of the Will, which was a debate with a Catholic scholar named Desiderius Erasmus (ca.1466-1536), that was an advocate of a free will theory. Cairns (1981: 263). Luther reasons that since human beings were fallen and abandoned God, they could not will good but only turned in the direction of their own desires. Luther (1525)(1972: 128-130). He comments that human beings were perverted and evil, Luther (1525)(1972: 128-130), but this can be used by God for his purposes, although people can do nothing but oppose God by the use of their own will. Luther (1525)(1972: 128-130). He dogmatically assumes that there is no middle way between God’s grace and human free will, Luther (1525)(1972: 130-133), and postulates that human free will should be theologically denied and everything should be ascribed to God. Luther (1525)(1972: 133).

When New Advent states in regards to Pelagius:

'By justification we are indeed cleansed of our personal sins through faith alone (loc. cit., 663, "per solam fidem justificat Deus impium convertendum"), but this pardon (gratia remissionis) implies no interior renovation of sanctification of the soul.'  

I will counter that true, New Testament, legal justification and as well sanctification, requires the applied atoning and resurrection work of God the Son, God incarnate, Jesus Christ, to believers through regeneration (John 3, Titus 3, 1 Peter 1). The soul is renovated, even as by grace through faith (Ephesians 1-2, Romans).

Luther in Commentary On The Epistle To The Romans reasoned that the righteousness of God was contrary to the human righteousness of works, Luther (1516)(1968: 25), instead when a human being received justification by God the person could then commit truly good works. Luther (1516)(1968: 25).

Arminianism, original sin, and prevenient grace

According to J.K. Grider, Arminianism is the theological view originating from quote 'James Arminius'. Grider (1996: 80). The name is in the original Dutch, Jakob Hermanszoon (1560-1609) Grider (1996: 80). His views were similar to quote 'pre-Augustinian fathers' Grider (1996: 79), as well as later, John Wesley. Grider (1996: 79).  Quote: 'In several ways it differs from the Augustine-Luther-Calvin tradition.' Grider (1996: 79). 

Grider explains that a key work from Arminius was Examination of Perkins' Pamphlet, and Declaration of Sentiments. Grider (1996: 79). On page 20 from the online version: The Works of James Arminius, Volume 3, Arminius states:  'From which we infer (of this we will speak hereafter) that the decree to leave man to the decision of his own destiny, and to permit the fall, does not belong to the decree of reprobation, since it is prior to and more ancient than the decree of predestination.'  Arminius (The Works of James Arminius, Volume 3: 20 (A)). 
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God is the first cause and primary cause of all things. Simultaneously, in eternal existence, God willed, within his infinite nature, as omnipotent and omniscient, all things. There is no divine, reasoning and pondering time in infinity and eternity, although all things, in regards to the human realm, will eventually take place in time. There is no such order, within the nature and will of God, as assumed here by Arminius. God willed the fall (Genesis 1-3), predestination (Ephesians 1-2, Romans 9, as examples) and that some would be chosen and predestined in Jesus Christ.

Christ is the lamb slain from the foundations of the world (Revelation 13: 8).  

Also within Ephesians 1:3-4: New American Standard Bible (NASB) 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before [a]Him. In love Footnotes: (a) Ephesians 1:4 Or Him, in love

Does prevenient grace work?

Arminianism holds to original sin and human corruption and that people are not able to do good without prevenient grace. Grider (1996: 80). Prevenient grace could be explained as preceding grace.

Arminians generally believe that God's grace is not irresistible, and that believers can fall away from God. Grider (1996: 80). A problem I see here is although Arminians believe in original sin, and total depravity, they state that people can reject God's salvific grace. Grider (1996: 80). I would think an understanding of original sin and the resulting fallen human nature, as described by Paul in Romans 1-3, for example, would view God's salvific grace to those who are totally depraved and corrupt, as having to be in a sense irresistible, although not forced or coerced. God would instead persuade and mould human beings he has predestined in order that they freely believe. God would have to change a human being that previously could not believe, so that he/she would follow God and Christ. 

In other words, from my Biblical perspective, human beings with a fallen human nature that were totally depraved would always reject God's prevenient grace, so for the Arminian to say that sometimes the grace is accepted and sometimes it is not, is to assume that the fallen human being has the ability to accept God's grace, despite total depravity. 

From my perspective this Arminian view does not present a fallen nature incapable of following God, but one that could possibly follow God if God provided prevenient (preceding) grace. So, an Arminian view is not Pelagian, but it presents a less than perfect nature that is seen as totally depraved, but still able to accept Christ with the help of God's grace. This idea was expressed by my Arminian influenced, Mennonite, Book of Romans professor who did not believe in a sinful nature, but that all human beings of less than perfect nature eventually took a sinful position against God. P.E. Hughes explains that prevenient grace precedes all human decision. Hughes (1996: 480). It sees God as taking the initiative. Hughes (1996: 480).

I am not in disagreement with this aspect of prevenient grace, but as Erickson states, Arminians recognizing the human inability to respond to the gospel introduced the idea of prevenient grace. Erickson (1994: 925). Erickson explains that there is no clear and adequate basis in Scripture for this concept of universal enablement to believe. Erickson (1994: 925). I agree with Erickson that prevenient grace is an appealing concept. Erickson (1994: 925). However, I reason that Biblically when God predestines someone as in Ephesians 1, he regenerates a person that shall believe. God simultaneously has the individual person, with a limited human free will, willingly accept the gospel message in the regeneration process.

Sin nature?

As noted, Arminians hold to a belief in original sin, and total depravity. Grider (1996: 80). But a minority may not hold to a belief in a sin nature, although Grider points out that James Arminius himself viewed persons as fallen and unable to do any good thing on their own. Grider (1996: 80).

Arminius quote:

'The whole of this sin, however, is not peculiar to our first parents, but is common to the entire race and to all their posterity, who, at the time when this sin was committed, were in their loins, and who have since descended from them by the natural mode of propagation, according to the primitive benediction: For in Adam ‘all have sinned’ (Rom. v,12). Wherefore, whatever punishment was brought down upon our first parents, has likewise pervaded and yet pursues all their posterity.' Arminius (Works, 2:156. (B)) (End citation)
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A sin nature may seem too negative for those that want to believe that the human being can choose God with divine help, but it may be that some hold to theology that is both Arminian and Pelagian in nature. This may have been the case with my Mennonite professors who claimed to be Arminian, but preferred the concept of sin position over the idea of sin nature in regard to humanity.

My view would require God to enlighten, persuade and mould an enslaved will, but without the use of force or coercion. This enslaved will would prior to salvation not be free to choose God and commit good actions pleasing to God in regard to salvation, but simultaneously in the salvation process the limited free will of a fallen human being would be enlightened, persuaded and moulded to believe in Christ. There must be a limited free will present in the salvation process or else hard determinism is taking place that is force or coercion. My view requires a sinful corrupt human nature, which is totally depraved, as in unable to freely choose God as is, without a divine spiritual alteration, whereas the Arminian view requires human beings to have sinned and be less than perfect, but to have the ability within their nature to accept God's prevenient grace with the use of free will.

My view sees limited free will as allowing God to restore the elect to him by salvation via an alteration of the person, but is not libertarian free will which through prevenient grace allows people to choose or reject Christ. In my understanding the fallen human being has a limited free will that freely rejects God, and through the salvation process God enables the believer to freely follow Christ. By limited free will I accept the idea that a fallen human being is free in the sense that he/she can be restored by God if elected, but not free in a way the he/she could be saved through prevenient grace.

John Calvin in my view held to a concept of free will similar to my own, and he has influenced my theology. He wrote in 1543 in The Bondage and Liberation of the Will.

If freedom is opposed to coercion, I both acknowledge and consistently maintain that choice is free and I hold anyone who thinks otherwise to be a heretic. If, I say, it were called free in this sense of not being coerced nor forcibly moved by an external impulse, but moving of its own accord, I have no objection. Calvin (1543)(1996: 68).

For Calvin although God must elect and restore an individual for salvation to occur, it is not done by force or coercion, but through the use of soft determinism as human beings are converted to a belief in Christ through the Holy Spirit. I would think a moderate sovereignty or Calvinistic view on human free will, especially in regard to salvation, provides the Christian with a good, Biblical, basic comprehension of something which is not completely understandable by the human mind. God predestines believers as shown in Ephesians 1, and is always the primary mover in human salvation. God has a perfect free will by which he chooses an individual which has far less than a perfect free will, and corrupted human nature.
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PELAGIUS (British Monk) (354-418) Note on Pelagius 

Cited 

Of his surviving works, only few are known in full. 

These are: 

De fide Trinitatis libri III ("On Faith in the Trinity: Three Books") 

Eclogarum ex divinis Scripturis liber primus ("Excerpts out of Divine Scriptures: Book One") 

Commentarii in epistolas S. Pauli ("Commentary on the Epistles of Saint Paul") 

Unfortunately, most of his work survives only in the quotations of his opponents. Only in the past century have works attributable to Pelagius been identified as such. Other writings include On Nature, parts of which are quoted in Augustine's On Nature and Grace, and Defense of the Freedom of the Will, quoted in Augustine's On the Grace of Christ. Also surviving are his letter to Demetrias, along with fragments of other letters, and the written statement of faith which was received by Pope Zosimus.

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Transcription. This article was transcribed for New Advent by Anthony A. Killeen. Aeterna non caduca. Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. February 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.

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Tuesday, January 10, 2006 MPhil Wales 2003

18 comments:

  1. According to a chart from Robert C. Walton, the Roman Catholic Church also holds to prevenient grace working in the salvation process.

    Robert C. Walton, Charts of Church History (Zondervan, 1986), p. 41.

    It appears that Thomas Aquinas believed in prevenient grace. He wrote the following in Nature and Grace:
    Article Three
    Whether Grace is Appropriately Divided into Prevenient and Subsequent Grace
    We proceed to the third article thus:

    1. It seems that grace is not appropriately divided into prevenient and subsequent grace. For grace is an effect of God’s love, and God’s love is never subsequent, but always prevenient, according to I John 4:10: “not that we loved God, but that he loved us.” Grace should not therefore be described as prevenient and subsequent.

    2. Again, sanctifying grace in man is one, since it is sufficient, according to II Cor. 12:9: “My grace is sufficient for thee.” But the same thing cannot be both prior and posterior. Grace is therefore inappropriately divided into prevenient and subsequent grace.

    3. Again, grace is known by its effects. Now the effects of grace are infinite in number, and one effect precedes another. It seems, therefore, that the species of grace will also be infinite in number, if grace is divided into prevenient and subsequent grace in respect of each of its effects. But what is infinite in number is ignored by every art. The division of grace into prevenient and subsequent grace is therefore not appropriate.

    On the other hand: God’s grace is the outcome of his mercy. Now on the one hand we read in Ps. 59:10: “The God of my mercy shall prevent me,” and on the other hand in Ps. 23:6: “mercy shall follow me.” Grace is therefore appropriately divided into prevenient and subsequent grace.

    I answer: just as grace is divided into operative and cooperative grace on account of its different effects, so is it divided into prevenient and subsequent grace on the same grounds. There are five effects of grace in us: first, that the soul is healed; second, that it wills what is good; third, that it carries out what it wills; fourth, that it perseveres in good; and fifth, that it attains to glory. Since grace causes the first effect in us, it is called prevenient in relation to the second effect. Since it causes the second effect in us, it is called subsequent in relation to the first effect. And since any particular effect follows one effect and precedes another, grace may be called both prevenient and subsequent in regard to the same effect as related to different effects. This is what Augustine is saying in De Nat. et Grat. 31, and 2 ad Bonif. 9,39 “Grace precedes, that we may be healed; it follows, that being healed we may be quickened; it precedes, that we may be called; it follows, that we may be glorified.”

    On the first point: since God’s love means something eternal, it can never be called other than prevenient. Grace, however, signifies an effect in time, which can precede one effect and follow another. It may therefore be called both prevenient and subsequent.

    On the second point: grace is not divided into prevenient and subsequent grace in respect of its essence, but solely in respect of its effects, as we said also in regard to operative and cooperative grace. Even as it pertains to the state of glory, subsequent grace is not numerically different from the prevenient grace by which we are now justified. The charity of the way is not annulled in heaven, but perfected, and we must say the same of the light of grace, since neither of them can mean anything imperfect.

    On the third point: although the effects of grace may be as infinite in number as the deeds of men, they are all reducible to what is determinate in species. Moreover, they are all alike in that one precedes another.

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/nature_grace.viii.iii.iii.html

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  2. Russ,
    In your view, how do differing views of grace and free will result in practical differences in teaching, other areas of theology, etc. in the church? Maybe this is a topic for another post.

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  3. Thanks Swirlyman. Your blog looks fairly new. If you would like to link, please let me know. I am always looking for new links, and to support good blogs.

    I agree that your question would be good for another post, and I hope to deal with the issue as I review the survey questions. I reason that those that accept free will perspectives and free will theodicy are likely to place too much emphasis on human will in regard to theodicy and salvation. I have heard it stated by more than one person that God would be a monster if my sovereignty theodicy were true in regard to the related concept of predestination. The free will idea would be that human beings all receive prevenient grace and that some choose to accept Christ and some do not. This seems to be an attempt to take any blame away from God for those ultimately outside of Christ. I see it as problematic as human corruption and the inability and lack of will to choose Christ means that for a person to be saved, regeneration must take place and not merely an opportunity for a corrupt being to choose Christ. Regeneration is God's choice alone. In my view, without regeneration and heavy persuasion by God in order that a person believes, they cannot and will not, as they freely reject God.

    Also, even if within my Reformed theodicy approach, we abandon the idea that persons cannot believe, but simply will not believe, the situation would not change in that God would have to predetermine who would believe by making the decision to regenerate an individual and providing one with the ability to freely believe. If doctrines similar to mine are taught in Christian churches, I imagine that some persons will not be very happy about it and may seek to find another church home. However, my view is Biblical and fits with Reformed tradition. If one favours sovereignty theodicy over free will theodicy, I reason that he/she will have a clearer understanding of the problem of evil and will not be tempted to weaken God's attributes, but will accept that he is in control and willingly allows some very tough things to occur within his good purposes. I do not like many of things that God wills, but I accept God as presented in Scripture and reasoned out within certain theology and philosophy.

    Russ:)

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  4. Russ, I checked out that website, what a load of crap that was, that guys a wolf. Rick b

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  5. Dan said...

    The Christian hell is a giant, evil hoax. So is free-will, but less evil than hell. Go to bible-truths.com.


    I glanced at it too. It is quite aggressive and intolerant of Christians with views the site author does not like.

    When these types bother with my blogs, they usually leave comments that are assertions, and rarely want to discuss or debate.

    There are pseudo-Christian cults (of course), and sadly, Christian cults, and both are influenced by darkness, demonic and human (of course).

    I suppose I will always receive my share of these comments and I will pass them on to my links to examine.

    Although many of us can handle these jokers easily on our own, by networking, we can team-up when needed and share the time burden it takes to deal with persons like these. If cultists want to cause trouble without being trolls, per say, they will find out that they may have to take on the blog owner and his friends. As the blog owner, one should definitely defend and answer on his/her own, as I always do, but by networking we show cultic types that cultic assertions will be met by the blog owner and others, if things get carried away. The same goes for others who try to cause trouble without trolling.

    This can prevent one blog owner from having to spend too much time on one troublemaker, or potentially a group, if one of us is targeted.

    Rick, I try to do this with your blog, Mormonism Reviewed and with Jeff's Thoughts and Theology. You guys can look after yourselves without me, but if I have the time and knowledge, I assist.

    Thanks, Rick.

    I should have a new article for this blog tonight.

    Russ:)

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  6. Rick, I try to do this with your blog, Mormonism Reviewed and with Jeff's Thoughts and Theology.

    Thanks, Russ.

    There are pseudo-Christian cults (of course), and sadly, Christian cults, and both are influenced by darkness, demonic and human (of course).

    What's the difference between a pseudo-Christian cult and a Christian cult? You mean like Mormons vs. Seventh-Day Adventists?

    I wonder if Santeria is a cult or a Religion. I'm pretty sure they are not a major World Religion. They are sort of a mixture between Catholicism and Voodoo. They often have little shrines in their houses, they perform curses, and they sacrifice animals.

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  7. Hey, since you guys are commenting on this old article, let me ask this. Someone in an online prayer group I belong to just posted this verse. Can you explain it, in light of Election, Russ? It's on of those verses that Aminians would use.

    1 JOHN 2:2
    And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

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  8. A group can hold to essential Christian doctrines and be cultic on secondary ones, and be cultic psychologically.

    Thanks.

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  9. Jeff: Here's a good exegesis on this passage.

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  10. It is quite clear that John did not hold that Christ died for every single individual, but for “ours” (the nation – Israel), and not only for “ours” (this nation only), but for the “whole world”, (the children of God who are scattered abroad.)

    This is possible, and a good answer.

    From reading Erickson and others I reason that Christ as infinite God, provides an infinite atoning work for finite sin.

    An infinite atoning work is therefore in a sense for all finite sin. It must be capable of atoning for all the sins of the world.

    It is however, only applied to those predestined in Christ.

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  11. Chucky,

    Thanks! Right after I posted that question, I found that same website (I guess its at the top of the search list), and emailed the article to the guy who was posting that challenge. Also, I'm going to post a link to that same article on my blog site (along with several others) in a few days, on the topic of Limited Atonement.

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  12. Russ,

    From reading Erickson and others I reason that Christ as infinite God, provides an infinite atoning work for finite sin.

    An infinite atoning work is therefore in a sense for all finite sin. It must be capable of atoning for all the sins of the world.

    It is however, only applied to those predestined in Christ.


    Sometimes I wonder if you're part Theologian and part Politician (no offense meant). You have a way of allowing leeway for both sides, and not stepping on toes (or, if you do, its only lightly), while still gently pushing toward one side.

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  13. Russ,

    A group can hold to essential Christian doctrines and be cultic on secondary ones, and be cultic psychologically.

    The last Baptist church I left was almost cultic psychologically, when they tried to tell me who I could witness to and who I could not, and, if I disagreed, or did not immediately and fully comply, I was told that I was in sin, and they were going to come to my house and 'correct' my 'disobedience.' I had never before encountered that, but I have since found out that the same thing has happened in some (a few?) Charismatic or non-denominational churches. My Charismatic brother labeled that a "spirit of control."

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  14. Jeff,

    This is sound philosophical theology!

    Christ's atoning work has to cover all sin in a sense. This is since he provides an infinite atonement, which must logically cover all finite sin. Sin is sin whether from an elected or not elected person. The thing covered is the same.

    How could infinite atonement not deal with all sin?

    God chooses to apply the atoning work to some persons having defeated ALL SIN.

    Russ:)

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  15. Russ,

    This is sound philosophical theology!

    Christ's atoning work has to cover all sin in a sense. This is since he provides an infinite atonement, which must logically cover all finite sin. Sin is sin whether from a elected or not elected person. The thing covered is the same.

    How could infinite atonement not deal with all sin?

    God chooses to apply the atoning work to some persons having defeated ALL SIN.


    OK, so maybe its my lack of understanding theological jargon (as well as Calvinism), rather than you wording it to try to straddle the fence to some degree in order not to offend people. I was only introduced to Election several years ago, and I still am not fully sure of the difference between the various degrees of Calvinist, so I'm still learning about these things. I was never interested in "Theology" as a subject until maybe a year ago or so, so I never cared much about all the details of the various views and their labels. For instance, I just now realized that you are apparently promoting the idea of infinite atonement, when, up to this very second, I thought all Calvinists and all Reformed Theologians believed in Limited Atonement. In fact, I thought that Limited Atonement was a part of the doctrine of Election. In any case, all of this provides new incentive and interest for me to continue studying.

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  16. Jeff, I do believe in limited atonement. Atonement is applied to the elect, and not to all. Remember I wrote an article supporting limited atonement.

    But, Christ's atonement has a infinite nature to it. This is how it outlasts finite sin.

    Russ:)

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  17. Again, I suppose its the theological jargon that I'm not used to. Even though I attended Bob Jones University for 2 years, I didn't take any Theology classes (only Bible Study classes), because I figured those were only for guys wanting to be preachers. And, honestly, I found books on Theology dry and boring. I have always liked books on Martyrs and Missionaries. I much prefer Apologetics, rather than Eschatology, Ecclesiology, Soteriology, and all those other "ologies" that sound way too intellectual to me.

    Anyway, I guess I do really understand, or think I do, even though I'm not even sure I understand the doctrine fully (but, then again, there is, after all, a sense in which it is a mystery). I assume that you are saying that Jesus did die for everyone, ('theoretically' is sort of how I understand it), but that, since the unregenerate human, having only a corrupted nature, will never freely choose to accept Christ (which I am learning is the first of the 5 Points of Calvinism, "Total Depravity"), then (and this would be the 'practically,' I suppose, vs. the 'theoretically') God chose/elected some to insure and guarantee (and for other reasons, as well, such as to demonstrate His grace, and mainly, to glorify Himself) that there would be a remnant saved, knowing that, otherwise, no one would ever come to Him.

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  18. As Christians we believe Christ defeated sin and death, correct? This would be all sin and death.

    Christ did this through the atonement and resurrection, and therefore his atoning work, as perfect man and infinite God defeated sin. The resurrection provides everlasting life in God's presence.

    Since there is the lake of fire, sin and separation from God in everlasting life continues.

    Therefore atonement wise, Christ's work is sufficient for all to eliminate sin. The resurrection in God's presence provides life, but these things are only applied to those in Christ.

    I do not pretend to completely understand the atonement, for a second.

    Thanks, Jeff.

    Russ:)

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