John 21: 24-25 Briefly

COURSON, JON (2005) Application Commentary, Thomas Nelson, Nashville.

ELLIS, DAVID J. (1986) 'John' in F.F. Bruce (gen.ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Marshall Pickering/ Zondervan.

Jon Courson

From Pastor Courson's website he has a recent sermon from May 30 on John 21.

As I have noted, I have listened to Pastor Courson on radio/online since 1987. He takes a rather dispensational, plain literal, perhaps fundamentalistic hermeneutic, in general with his interpretation of Scripture. This is quite useful for straight bible reading and basic interpretations, but in my mind does not always produce a more correct theology:

John 21:24-25

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and wrote these things, and we know that his testimony is true. 25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they *were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself *would not contain the books that *would be written.

Pastor Courson does not deal with the contextual issues with this section of Scripture. Notice the stars with the New American Standard Version. Scholarship will provide explanation shortly. Courson does not deal with contextual problems, but also takes the idea that the world could not contain all the books that could be written about Jesus Christ as plain literal.

From his commentary:

The world could not even hold all that could be written about Jesus Christ. (605).

It seems to me that over the years I have come across two atheistic critics which use this claim from John 21: 25 as a premise that demonstrates that the Gospel of John is ridiculous and false.

Ellis suggests that this concept is exaggerated metaphor and hyperbole. (1263). The ideas and stories in the gospels could basically, based on what Ellis writes, continue on to infinitude. But they never would.

Ellis reasons that verse 25 may have been added by a scribe at a later date. (1263). It may or may not be inspired Scripture.

Bible Hub

Examples from two commentaries:

Meyer's NT Commentary

Cited

Not only is the inharmonious and unspiritual exaggeration in John 21:25 un-Johannean (unsuccessfully defended by Weitzel, loc. cit. p. 632 ff., and softened down by Ewald, with a reference also to Coh xii. 12), it is also apocryphal in character (comp. similar hyperboles in Fabricius, ad Cod. Apocr. I. p. 321 f., and Wetstein in loc.), but also the periodic mode of expression, which does not agree with the Johannean simplicity, as well as the first person (οἶμαι), in which John in the Gospel never speaks; moreover, nowhere else does he use οἴεσθαι, which, however, is found in Paul also only once (Php 1:17). The variations are (see the critical notes) of no importance for a critical judgment.

Benson Commentary

John 21:25. And there are also many other things which Jesus did — Many which none of the evangelists have recorded; which, if they should be written every one — Every fact, and all the circumstances thereof; I suppose — This expression, which softens the hyperbole, (if this be one,) shows that John wrote this verse; the world itself could not contain the books that should be written — The construction of this verse, in our present translation, is fully justified by adducing from the Old Testament expressions equally hyperbolical. 

Cited

“I agree perfectly,” says Dr. Campbell, “with those interpreters who think that the hyperbole contained in this verse is much more tolerable than the torture to which some critics have put the words, in order to make them speak a different sense.” “Perhaps,” says the pious Dr. Doddridge, referring to what St. John here declares respecting the many other things done by Jesus, which have not been recorded, “it may be a most delightful part of the entertainment of the heavenly world, to learn from our blessed Lord himself, or from those who conversed with him on earth, a multitude of such particulars of his life as will be well worthy our everlasting admiration.

A reasonable contextual approach would be to view this explanation as figurative literal. In other words, the Apostle John (or scribe) is explaining that there would be a virtually endless supply of Jesus Christ stories. Writers could produce material on Jesus Christ as God-man, endlessly. But this will not happen. The science and common sense would not allow an endless supply of books to fill the earth in a plain literal way, but it is fanciful metaphor.

James: Different works

Sandy, Utah

Driving home from the YVR the other day, I was listening to a well-known local pastor on the radio speak on the book of James.

Paraphrased:

When Paul was discussing that one is not saved by works righteousness, but by faith through grace, the Apostle meant that no person provided a work or works for salvific merit.

The applied atoning and resurrection work of Jesus Christ is applied to believers, alone. See Romans, Galatians and Ephesians 1-2.

When James stated in 2: 24:

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

This is not in regard to salvific faith, but a life of Christian virtues. In other words a human being that is actually justified and saved through the work of Christ will demonstrate Christian virtues. This is my view connects to Paul’s statements in Ephesians 2 that being saved through grace through faith, those in Christ are created for good works in Jesus Christ.

I have noted earlier on this website:

This celebrated passage was a stumbling block to Reformed Theologian Martin Luther. Carson (1986: 1541). And therefore one can acknowledge there is a level of sophistication involved with this subject. It continues to be a complex and controversial issue today.

For the Apostle Paul, faith in the New Testament has to do with legal justification before God, as in the texts of Romans and Galatians. Carson (1986: 1541-1543). For James, the half-brother of Jesus Christ, the meaning is somewhat different, as vindication is meant as in showing righteousness to God and humanity. Carson (1986: 1541-1543). In Paul's writings, deeds of law are discussed, in regard to the topic of merit (and lack of). Carson (1986: 1541-1543). In the Book of James, faith has to do with love and obedience. Carson (1986: 1541-1543). James is concerned with the evidence for faith before God and persons. As in a public testimony. Carson (1986: 1541-1543). Paul states human beings are not justified by works. Carson (1986: 1541-1543).

This is of course very notable in Ephesians as in Chapter 2, in Romans 4, and in Galatians 2. James does not contradict this in 2: 24. Carson (1986: 1541-1543). Legal justification and therefore salvation is not in mind but rather justification and righteousness in works for one that already has saving faith. Carson (1986: 1541-1543). Carson mentions Calvin's idea that faith alone justifies (saves) but faith alone should never be alone. Carson (1986: 1541-1543). Barclay writes that it is only through deeds that faith can prove itself and only through faith that deeds with be attempted and done. Barclay (1975: 78). Barclay reasons faith is bound to overflow into action. Barclay (1975: 78). 'Faith and deeds are the opposite sides of man's experience with God.' Barclay (1975: 79). Barclay views no one's faith as genuine unless it moves his/her to action. Barclay (1975: 79).

Bible Gateway.com

2: 17

οὕτως καὶ ἡ πίστις, ἐὰν μὴ ἔχῃ ἔργα, νεκρά ἐστιν καθ’ ἑαυτήν. 

17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is [a]dead, being by itself. (New American Standard Bible)

So indeed - faith if it has not works, dead/useless is by itself. (Mine wooden Greek)

From the New Testament, Bauer views the term 'dead faith' in James, 2: 26, also 17 and 20 as useless faith. Dead works cannot bring about 'eternal life'. Bauer (1976: 534-535). Carson too used the term useless faith as in dead faith. Carson (1986: 1542).

BARCLAY, WILLIAM (1976) The Letters of James and Peter, Philadelphia, The Westminster Press. 

BAUER, WALTER. (1979) A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Translated by Eric H. Wahlstrom, Chicago, The University of Chicago Press. CARSON T. (1986) ‘James', in F.F. Bruce (ed.),The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Zondervan.

MARSHALL, ALFRED (1975)(1996) The Interlinear KJV-NIV, Grand Rapids, Zondervan.

Chronological, Utah trip photo review

May 24: Why do I not take photos of people? This is an academic website, at times controversial in nature. I am not certain a person would to have like his/her photo (s) on this website. I reason, ethically, I should protect the rights of others. There are plenty of wedding photos available from friends and family on Facebook. I had two main purposes in this trip: 1) My nephew's wedding 2) To visit the Salt Lake Temple and study Mormonism. I purposely booked a motel in Salt Lake City (which happened to be away from the family in Cottonwood Heights) in order to provide myself with two potential days to visit the Salt Lake Temple. Thankful to God, I managed to achieve 2) the day I arrived by plane via several hours on foot. This photo is after I left the Motel 6 and was walking toward the Temple.

May 24: Yes, the street on the way to the Temple was listed as West Temple, but I did not see many obvious signs of the religion until quite a bit into the two hour walk (four hour round trip) when I came across this Mormon church.  People I talked to in Salt Lake City were non-Latter-day Saints, other than at the Temple.

May 24: Admittedly there was a scarcity of Christian churches and the visible, cross. But, the cross, and the atoning and resurrection of Christ is the key to human salvation from the triune God in Jesus Christ (Ephesians, Romans, Hebrews). Matthew 7 continually came to mind: 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [a]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ New American Standard Bible.

May 24: The home of the Triple A farm club of the Los Angeles Angels, the Salt Lake City Bees. If I would have had more time I would liked to have watched a game live.

May 24: This site featured a major traffic accident seconds later. I was typing and only heard it and caught the end. I would be an insufficient witness as far as determining cause. Days later a woman almost drove into me on the crosswalk. She was looking right at me and eventually wised up, seconds before I would need to dive.

May 24: I believe this is downtown. I was surprised that such a conservative, Republican state, had not corrected this...

May 24: Approaching my goal, on foot...

May 24: At Temple Square.

May 24: The Salt Lake Temple. The Sisters (Missionaries) on site provide very good public relations for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Sad to state, I reason some North American evangelicals could learn something from this public relations in regard to approaching those with whom there are religious and worldview differences. I am a biblical Christian and Reformed and certainly in agreement with core evangelical doctrines. But my deduction is that in the American, Latter-day Saints-Evangelical battles, the American evangelicals are often the aggressors. The Mormons seem interested in witnessing, but not typically not debating. Frankly, the evangelical position is the far stronger one theologically, but again I am primarily Reformed.

May 24: I took two tours to walk there and witnessed and discussed biblical and Reformed theology for approximately, two hours with the Sisters and one other person taking the tour.

May 24: During the second tour, the Sister stated she was hoping to meet with her Bishop and be considered 'worthy' for more tasks, including in the Temple. I stated that was a form of works righteousness and that (Ephesians 1-2, James) those in Jesus Christ were saved by grace through faith for good works by the applied atoning and resurrection work of Jesus Christ. She denied that she held to work's righteousness, but did not offer further rebuttal.

May 24: This same Sister on the tour claimed marriage was eternal. But this is clearly countered by Jesus Christ's teaching in Matthew 22,  Mark 12, Luke 20. The teaching is not just stating there will be no new marriages, but no marriages. As Jesus Christ was resurrected as glorified man, and glorified male, I do not reason those in Christ (1 Corinthians 15) will be asexual but male and female sexuality will not be marriage, intercourse and procreation based. We shall be like the angels as in not married, but we will not be non-corporeal like the angels. I encouraged diverse reading for these Sisters, as I have done.

May 24: The Smiths

May 24: The Mormon story...

May 24: Again the importance of the Latter-day Saint marriage spin...It is a theological failure to misunderstand that the new creation will be radically different, although still connected to this present realm (Revelation 21-22). The Church is the everlasting family, more so. Of course that can include original family!

May 24: Pathway with Latter-day Saints origin stories...

May 24: The Latter-day Saints story...

May 24: Artistically impressive.

May 24: I find the lack of crosses very theologically telling. In a biblical faith and worldview the cross, the atoning and resurrection work of Christ is imputed and applied to believers for future good works. A works righteousness religious system denies that the cross is sufficient for atonement leading to everlasting life. Also in great heresy is the Latter-day Saints doctrine of henotheism as in the worship of one God and the belief in many. Especially disturbing is a belief that godhood can be obtained if one is worthy...Isaiah 43-45, for example, makes it clear that only one God exists or ever shall exist.

May 24: Hebrews explains that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross makes other forms of atonement invalid. Hebrews 9: 15 states: For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. New American Standard Bible.

May 24: The angel Moroni.

May 25: Cottonwood Heights, for a pre-wedding meal and party. I drove May 25-26.

May 26: Sandy, Utah, La Caille, wedding and reception site.

May 26: World class view. A warmer version of here at home...

May 26: It was very warm in my suit...

May 26: Good walkways...

May 26: Almost wedding time...

May 26: Reception.

May 26: This place was as impressive at night as in day.

May 26: A little Mormon like history?

May 27: I did a two hour round trip walk to South Salt Lake City, which according to the book store employee is making attempts at becoming a second downtown. I like it...

May 27: If I had more time, I would have liked to keep walking in that direction...

May 27: On the way back to my motel...

On the way walking back to my motel, I was hit by a massive hail storm and took cover...

Text numbers for New Testament manuscripts lecture

Zakynthos, Ionian Islands, Greece-Travel+Leisure, Facebook

Greek Manuscripts, Part or All of the New Testament (17) Page 10.

Papyri Cataloged 127
Uncial Mss. Cataloged 318
Minuscule Mss. Cataloged 2, 880
Lectionaries Cataloged 2, 436

Total 5, 761 (Numbers in all categories inch up periodically with new discoveries) German numbers from 1994 and 2011 are accessed.

ELWELL, WALTER AND YARBROUGH, ROBERT W., Third Edition (2013) Encountering The New Testament, Grand Rapids, Baker Academic.

TGC March 12 2012: Daniel B. Wallace

How many NT manuscripts do we know of? 

As far as Greek manuscripts, over 5800 have been catalogued. 

The New Testament was translated early on into several other languages as well, such as Latin, Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Georgian, Gothic, etc. The total number of these versional witnesses has not been counted yet, but it certainly numbers in the tens of thousands. 

At the same time, it should be pointed out that most of our manuscripts come from the second millennium AD, and most of our manuscripts do not include the whole New Testament. A fragment of just a verse or two still counts as a manuscript. And yet, the average size for a NT manuscript is more than 450 pages. 

At the other end of the data pool are the quotations of the NT by church fathers. To date, more than one million quotations of the NT by the church fathers have been tabulated. These fathers come from as early as the late first century all the way to the middle ages.
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One of Ehrman’s theses is that orthodox scribes tampered with the text in hundreds of places, resulting in alterations of the essential affirmations of the NT. 

How do you respond?

Ehrman is quite right that orthodox scribes altered the text in hundreds of places. In fact, it’s probably in the thousands. Chief among them are changes to the Gospels to harmonize them in wording with each other.

But to suggest that these alterations change essential affirmations of the NT is going far beyond the evidence. The variants that he produces do not do what he seems to claim. Ever since the 1700s, with Johann Albrecht Bengel who studied the meaningful and viable textual variants, scholars have embraced what is called ‘the orthodoxy of the variants.’ For more than two centuries, most biblical scholars have declared that no essential affirmation has been affected by the variants. Even Ehrman has conceded this point in the three debates I have had with him. (For those interested, they can order the DVD of our second debate, held at the campus of Southern Methodist University. It’s available here.)
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As I have noted online and on this website, central theology and doctrine is consistent via manuscript evidence and through the writings of the Church Fathers.